The NNN/BC Truth Thread

[CIMA]

I think the most important thing to keep in mind here is that we're talking about a totally different style of skiing. Not the XCD kind we're used to. One with a different technique than telemark. Where every amount of pressure is crucial to the overall balance of the skier. I just can't wait to try it on snow... Woooooaaaaah!

Yes!
Stay hungry, stay foolish!

[Johnny]

There is basically 4 different types of telemark skiing. Each of them requires a totally different skiing technique / stance / position. Even if they all drop the knee, each of them are unique. And each of them rewards the skier in a different way...

1- 75 NN skiing
2- NTN skiing
3- XCD w/pins
4- Cross-Country skiing, Downhill.

Why settle for only one when you can do them all?

[Raventele]

Well, actually the only one I would toss would be NTN.. With 3pin hardwires , who needs all that NTN $$$ crap ? I don't see the increased bang for all the BUCK! I have skied with plenty who just do nothing more than I do but spend $$$ on the NTN..Mights as well add alpine bindings to the mix there, LJ..Just sayin' In fact I wonder how many Tele folks actually have alpine setups ? Perfect for miserably hard snow conditions..and crusts..and cruds..Personally, I would add alpine to the mix before I deigned to bother with NTN..
Cross country skiing downhill on the (basically/ usually) groomed XC trails is, of course, a whole lotta unstable fun..

[Raventele]

Well, #1) I never said tips were not important -- no tips , no skis.. What I said most of the skiers weight is over, obviously, over the mid-section of the ski, so the most effective way to increase flotation for some given ski would be to fatten the ski..

This is not true. Because the ski has a camber, it enables the weight, which is applied to the mid-section, to distribute onto the tips and tails. Please refer to the "Camber & rocker" section of the Wikipedia.

2) I have no idea how to calculate "ski value" based on ski tips or what that actually might even mean..

That's not difficult. Just cut off the tips from your beloved skis and then put them on the eBay. However, just the tips themselves won't sell.

3) In recent years ski tip design has taken some seemingly odd new and interesting turns..Is it all about flotation ? No, not at all, more about turning the skis..

The tip is the solid basis of all skis and indispensable. Other added values are auxiliaries that would be intangible for average skiers.

4) I think your resistive forces theory is seriously flawed.. The ideal is to weight the ski downwards around the ball of the foot which, whatever the camber of the ski, will move the tip of the ski upwards.. Suspend any ski between 2 sawhorses or chairs and push down towards the middle..It will bow with or without camber..That having been said, when ya leave the groomers, on whatever snow, who does not pay careful attention to their tips and adjust weight accordingly?

Your theory is partially right. When an impulsive force is applied onto the mid-section of the ski, it bends downward and the tip moves upward like you said. That's why many telemark skiers tend to overly bend and ride on their back knees on powder. For AT skiers, that's the only theory to which they cling to stay afloat on powder while they're making turns. In a static state and if the skis are placed on flat snow, your theory doesn't hold due to the function of the camber.

The resistive force (or pressure applied onto the front parts of the skis) is always generated when you lean forward or lift the heels of the boots and won't be negligible on powder. This force pushes the tips downward definitely. You may have seen a lot of times your telemark friends tumbling or diving while descending on powder. Most reasons for that is because the tips of their skis stuck. To check those visually, place your skies on your water bed and ride on them with wearing boots. Fasten the bindings, and lean forward or lift your heels then see how deep the tips sink in. Hopefully try the test by changing different 3-pin/boot setups: softest and sturdiest. If a NNN/BC is available at hand, please do test it also. You'll be amazed at the results.

If your theory were even close to correct, skiing powder with my K2 Backups, 3pin Hardwires and T2-ecos would REALLY be a nightmare..

Wait a minute. Is such a beefy stuff considered a XCD gear, also? No way!
Let's look back to the days when televangelist Dickie Hall in Vermont was rambling the hills on his toothpick skinny double cambers and called his ski-style XCD. You seem to have stretched the definition of XCD too much. Please don't compare a tent to a log house here. A military tent at most, hopefully.

5) The springs on the 3PC help do exactly what you seem to think they do not i.e. the offer a resistance to pitching one's weight too far forward .. System bindings are fatally flawed in that it take a LOT of effort to keep from pitching completely up on ones toes and doing exactly and easily what you think always happens on pins..

If you ski mogul, that is true.
If you ski on NNN/BC on powder and stick to your established ski-techniques, that would be often the case.
However, if you change your mind and stop telemarking on NNN/BC, that wouldn't be an issue.

6) I really doubt your claim that system bindings are so much better on ascent than pins..Yes they have more range of motion as anyone who XC skis knows but , about the steepest incline you are going to handle with fishscales (if conditions are RIGHT) might be 15 degrees ? That's not a big deal one way or another on one binding or another..

I go for ski tour with AT guys often on my SNS/BC with bringing my climbing skins. The elevation range of the tour area would be 1640 to 8800 ft. Both on powder and consolidated snow. There is no problem unless snow gets icy.

Even when you're walking on low-angle slopes, there are many small obstacles, such as bumps, fallen trees, narrow gorges, etc that you should get over in backcountry. Once you have got used to the easiness of NNN or TLT, every such the obstacle will get under your skin while your walking on 3-pin and sturdy boots.

7) Speaking of resistive forces, there's nothing worse than fishscales on low angles!!!

That's not an issue on powder because the fishscales are ineffective there.
The advantage of using the fishscales is mobility. A sense of freedom while walking and skiing using the fishscales overwhelms a sense of losses on speed.
The resistive force is way matter on low angles on powder because the bending factor described in 4) doesn't work very much there. The sturdier your gear gets, the more difficult it becomes for you to stay afloat.

Well #1 Camber varies..quite dramatically, unless you choose to define an XCD skis as only those that have 1.5 and greater; I do not..and in any case, there are many subtle gradations..But even so, the weight that is a force forward is also to this or that extent also the same force that moves the tips upwards to this or that extent..and what is the point in testing this in a static condition on a flat surface ? That's not downhill skiing.

2) Yes.. such beefy gear is seen in Telehereo's signature video! Ha ha --when the NNN option is simply inadequate..

3) What the elevation gain is does not tell us what the overall slope of the climb is.. I don't know of any fishscales that would work well on slopes exceeding 15 degrees, give or take, without lots of angling up..Fishscales can be such an annoyance on the down that I often wish to grind them off and simply use wax and skinny skins..

4) Fishscales may well be less resistive on powder, but it seems you all are as often on consolidated spring and summer snow as you are on powder.. and the resistance of fishscales on powder varies considerably with temperature in any case..


5) Another terrible limitation RE system BC setups is that they are, especially as far as Tele is concerned , pretty limited to very soft-soled boots ..Why ? Well, because you are basically limited to initiation of the flex from directly under your toes-- where the binding bar is -- that's the pivot point ..And that's really a terrible limitation except for those who wish to limit their skiing to very easy conditions..

6) Will I play on System gear ? Sure! Great fun! But I am not willing to pay for it ? Nope..

7) BTW, on every single video of you all skiing in powder , you are all visibly back-weighting your skis.. Irrespective of bindings, this is not all that hard to do..And the ones that tumble in your vids also get, generally, too forward on the skis..same old story..no miracle binding cure..NNN does not save anyone..

[CIMA]

what is the point in testing this in a static condition on a flat surface ? That's not downhill skiing.

The static conditions include not only standstill states but also neutral ones such as liner motion and between-turns where you must have seen a lot of times your friends on tele diving into powder.

2) Yes.. such beefy gear is seen in Telehereo's signature video! Ha ha --when the NNN option is simply inadequate..

By his definition, the XCD is equal to NNN(SNS)/BC and not any other else. Your broad definition of XCD may sound weird to many European skiers, too.

3) What the elevation gain is does not tell us what the overall slope of the climb is.. I don't know of any fishscales that would work well on slopes exceeding 15 degrees, give or take, without lots of angling up..Fishscales can be such an annoyance on the down that I often wish to grind them off and simply use wax and skinny skins..

I do use climbing skis to hike up mountains.
Mountainous area accounts for 73% of total Japan, which is a little smaller than California and has about 200 mountains lying over 6,500 ft above sea level. Guess how steep the mountains where we go for ski tour over here.

4) Fishscales may well be less resistive on powder, but it seems you all are as often on consolidated spring and summer snow as you are on powder.. and the resistance of fishscales on powder varies considerably with temperature in any case..

That discussions on the fishscales seem to be a little off topic. The fishscales are not limited to NNN/BC. Nowadays we can see many fat waxless skis like Voile Vector BC and Charger BC in the market. Sorry, I would not like to elaborate on those fishscales here.

5) Another terrible limitation RE system BC setups is that they are, especially as far as Tele is concerned , pretty limited to very soft-soled boots ..Why ? Well, because you are basically limited to initiation of the flex from directly under your toes-- where the binding bar is -- that's the pivot point ..And that's really a terrible limitation except for those who wish to limit their skiing to very easy conditions..

Not really. I'll show you the following two examples:



The first picture is a consolidated slope I descended on my Rossignol BC70/Salomon X-adv Raid/Salomon Xadv-8 in Mt. Hakusan (8868ft/2703m) in May 2013. The angle was 45 degrees or more at the maximum. That was an exhilarating run!



The second one is a powder slope I descended on my Fischer S-bound 88/Salomon SNS XA manual/Salomon Xadv-8 in Mt. Ohnagi (5174ft/1566m) in March 2014. The angle may be around 35 degrees at the maximum with around 22 inch snow. About thirty guys including fat tele, AT and snow board, joined the run. Though the powder was a little sticky, I had a great run there also. The snow board guys and two AT guys did so as well. The rest seemed a little miserable.

6) Will I play on System gear ? Sure! Great fun! But I am not willing to pay for it ? Nope..

If skiers are looking for a light telemark gear, NNN(SNS)/BC is a worthy option of consideration. If they have large collections of XCD gear and are satisfied already like you, I won't dare to brainwash them.

7) BTW, on every single video of you all skiing in powder , you are all visibly back-weighting your skis.. Irrespective of bindings, this is not all that hard to do..And the ones that tumble in your vids also get, generally, too forward on the skis..same old story..no miracle binding cure..NNN does not save anyone..

I do not care about the weighting much because skiing on NNN/BC is like walking on the pathway for me. Every the motion flows. There are no static ones.

Even tumbling on snow is not a big issue for NNN/BC skiers because recovery from that is easy thanks to the lightness and flexibility of the gear. For the same reason, they seldom injure legs. If you're on sturdy boots and bindings, it would take twice as much as time and energy for to recover, or you just stay helpless. The damages on your legs are sometimes not negligible in that case.

[Johnny]

Personally, I would add alpine to the mix before I deigned to bother with NTN..

Well, I was talking about knee-dropping sports... Alpine doesn't even count as a sport, it's just like sledding and tobogganing.

NTN being different in it's construction then NN, it requires a different technique. As a result, it also means it gives the user a totally different sensation then NN. Just like "real" XCD must give a totally different feeling than our western version of XCD.

Personally, I like all kinds of girls. And I like all kinds of telemark skiing...

By his definition, the XCD is equal to NNN(SNS)/BC and not any other else. Your broad definition of XCD may sound weird to many European skiers, too.

If they have large collections of XCD gear and are satisfied already like you, I won't dare to brainwash them.

Woooaaah, now this is great. Two different ski cultures arguing over what is REAL XCD. How could it get better than this? This, is an epic thread my friends...!

PLEASE keep brainwashing me...!! I'm never satisfied...!
(I might have found my own truth here because of you guys... : )

[CIMA]

Woooaaah, now this is great. Two different ski cultures arguing over what is REAL XCD. How could it get better than this? This, is an epic thread my friends...!

It seems as if you're in the crowd watching a steel cage match between the two sides of us.
Why not enter the cage as well, LJ?

[Raventele]

tele diving into powder.

2) Yes.. such beefy gear is seen in Telehereo's signature video! Ha ha --when the NNN option is simply inadequate..

1: By his definition, the XCD is equal to NNN(SNS)/BC and not any other else. Your broad definition of XCD may sound weird to many European skiers, too.

3) What the elevation gain is does not tell us what the overall slope of the climb is.. I don't know of any fishscales that would work well on slopes exceeding 15 degrees, give or take, without lots of angling up..Fishscales can be such an annoyance on the down that I often wish to grind them off and simply use wax and skinny skins..

2 : I do use climbing skis to hike up mountains.
Mountainous area accounts for 73% of total Japan, which is a little smaller than California and has about 200 mountains lying over 6,500 ft above sea level. Guess how steep the mountains where we go for ski tour over here.

5) Another terrible limitation RE system BC setups is that they are, especially as far as Tele is concerned , pretty limited to very soft-soled boots ..Why ? Well, because you are basically limited to initiation of the flex from directly under your toes-- where the binding bar is -- that's the pivot point ..And that's really a terrible limitation except for those who wish to limit their skiing to very easy conditions..

3: Not really. I'll show you the following two examples:



The first picture is a consolidated slope I descended on my Rossignol BC70/Salomon X-adv Raid/Salomon Xadv-8 in Mt. Hakusan (8868ft/2703m) in May 2013. The angle was 45 degrees or more at the maximum. That was an exhilarating run!



The second one is a powder slope I descended on my Fischer S-bound 88/Salomon SNS XA manual/Salomon Xadv-8 in Mt. Ohnagi (5174ft/1566m) in March 2014. The angle may be around 35 degrees at the maximum with around 22 inch snow. About thirty guys including fat tele, AT and snow board, joined the run. Though the powder was a little sticky, I had a great run there also. The snow board guys and two AT guys did so as well. The rest seemed a little miserable.

6) Will I play on System gear ? Sure! Great fun! But I am not willing to pay for it ? Nope..

4: If skiers are looking for a light telemark gear, NNN(SNS)/BC is a worthy option of consideration. If they have large collections of XCD gear and are satisfied already like you, I won't dare to brainwash them.

7) BTW, on every single video of you all skiing in powder , you are all visibly back-weighting your skis.. Irrespective of bindings, this is not all that hard to do..And the ones that tumble in your vids also get, generally, too forward on the skis..same old story..no miracle binding cure..NNN does not save anyone..

5: I do not care about the weighting much because skiing on NNN/BC is like walking on the pathway for me. Every the motion flows. There are no static ones.

6: Even tumbling on snow is not a big issue for NNN/BC skiers because recovery from that is easy thanks to the lightness and flexibility of the gear. For the same reason, they seldom injure legs. If you're on sturdy boots and bindings, it would take twice as much as time and energy for to recover, or you just stay helpless. The damages on your legs are sometimes not negligible in that case.

1) Fair enough, anyone can define anything the way he or she chooses..But might as well say XCD gear is gear only appropriate to skiing powder (hero snow) and consolidated spring and summer snow..Because that's all we see any of the vids, and that's about all most of us would expect to see relative to System BC gear..But others will want to ski at higher speeds on more variable snow and with more stability.. My "broad" definition is just to say that anything appropriate to a rolling tour and decent downhill skiing should be called XCD..And, btw, there are many times when breaking trail even on the flats is far far easier in the likes of pins and leathers or lite plastics than System gear..

2) I also climb in fishscales, but I was making the point that the route often has to be carefully considered..And also the point that if one is always climbing on fishscales , the chances are that skier is generally skiing low or lower angles..

3) There's virtually no leverage available to take advantage of in your NNN bindings..A simple little bar and a bit of plastic directly under the toes!..Compare that to the leverage available with a duckbill as one comes tight against the bail either forward or backwards ; there's simply no comparison..Almost all the power transfer you can get from an NNN binding has to come from weight shift with very very leverage. Again a good stiff-soled boot seems very very inappropriate to NNN BC bindings. In any case, I never said you could not ski a steep slope on very good snow or consolidated softer snow; your pics illustrate the point RE conditions and NNN BC.

4) If skiers are looking towards XCD, they actually have a good deal to consider .. Like whether they have countless hours to devote to the perfect balance required to ski ultralite gear and whether they can easily find the conditions to match the gear..

5) You may not "care" about weighting, but virtually everyone in your vids is careful to keep their weight generally back..And those who do not go tumbling --pretty much the same as what you would see with folks on various pins. I would submit to you that IF NNN/BC floated powder significantly better than gear with pins, such prominent backweighting would seem unnecessary.

6) Tumbling on pins is also generally not a big deal..I even have some pins with old CRB's-- which occasionally actually release! But I would say that XC and System is probably a bit safer than pins.

I think it's great to ski ultralite gear, but I think far too often the claims made for it are ultra-exaggerated..

Let's just say you are right about the NNN binding floating more readliy in very soft snow than various pins options.. Where does that leave the pinners ? Making various adjustments to our technique, that's all..
But suppose conditions are not so great, a foot of heavier snow, ice, serious hardpack yada yada, where's does that leave the System gear crowd ? Flailing, not going out, skiing very carefully and very slowly, perhaps walking..
For a more powerful binding, more appropriate to more demanding and less-than-ideal conditions, pins win, simply no contest!
( BTW, NNN/BC bindings and lateral stability..is there such a thing ?..Simply miserable ..)

Ahh Pins and Powder!!

[CIMA]

But others will want to ski at higher speeds on more variable snow and with more stability..

I would recommend light AT rigs to such the folks in that case.
Actually the AT rigs for rando racing are far lighter than those of XCD. Still more, the rando racers have no issues about skiing on powder. There is nothing for XCD skiers to beat the rando racers in any cases.

My "broad" definition is just to say that anything appropriate to a rolling tour and decent downhill skiing should be called XCD..

Then, where is the border between XCD and normal telemark?
The XCD of your definition was called just "telemark" ten years ago, wasn't it?

And, btw, there are many times when breaking trail even on the flats is far far easier in the likes of pins and leathers or lite plastics than System gear..

I wonder on what grounds you're saying like that.
Unless you even call 3-pin-mounted BD Megawatt a XCD, that is not true. Free pin pivot systems are always better than 3-pins for walikng. That's why tour bindings such as Voile Switchback and G3 Targa Ascent are welcomed by many telemark skiers. Because of the resistive force coming from bindings/boots, it'll gnaw on your foot in every step you make. In a long ski tour, it'll accumulate as a large penalty for you. What is worse is that for 3-pins it's not so easy as TLT or NNN(SNS) to get the tips above powder when you step forward. That is apparent when you go for ski tour with folks on different bindings. From those points of view, 3-pin is just a joke.

3) There's virtually no leverage available to take advantage of in your NNN bindings..A simple little bar and a bit of plastic directly under the toes!..Compare that to the leverage available with a duckbill as one comes tight against the bail either forward or backwards ; there's simply no comparison..Almost all the power transfer you can get from an NNN binding has to come from weight shift with very very leverage. Again a good stiff-soled boot seems very very inappropriate to NNN BC bindings. In any case, I never said you could not ski a steep slope on very good snow or consolidated softer snow; your pics illustrate the point RE conditions and NNN BC.

Such leverage works on powder negatively as it's related to the resistive force. From another point of view, that leverage, in conjunction with the stiffness of upper caffs of boots, would become a cause of sprain in your foot. In that sense, NNN/BC is safer. The leverage is not always good as it may appear.

4) If skiers are looking towards XCD, they actually have a good deal to consider .. Like whether they have countless hours to devote to the perfect balance required to ski ultralite gear and whether they can easily find the conditions to match the gear..

Yes, skiing on NNN/BC is not so easy. It's like surfing. Once you get a knack for riding on it, you'll get a flying experience!

5) You may not "care" about weighting, but virtually everyone in your vids is careful to keep their weight generally back..And those who do not go tumbling --pretty much the same as what you would see with folks on various pins. I would submit to you that IF NNN/BC floated powder significantly better than gear with pins, such prominent backweighting would seem unnecessary.

I do not see any merits of even/forward weighting.
That'll simply wear you out because you're just performing a split-stance-squat:





Both look very similar, don't they?
This is one of the main reasons why many of telemark skiers give up on telemark and turn to AT.

As for skiing technique of NNN/BC, I'd like to elaborate on it in another setting because there are many issues that overlap general telemark techniques.

I think it's great to ski ultralite gear, but I think far too often the claims made for it are ultra-exaggerated..

That's true. NNN/BC is not light at all compared to the rando racing gear. I need rando racing skis with SNS mounted!

Let's just say you are right about the NNN binding floating more readliy in very soft snow than various pins options.. Where does that leave the pinners ? Making various adjustments to our technique, that's all..

That's true. Good techniques make up for the drawbacks on powder to some extent.

But suppose conditions are not so great, a foot of heavier snow, ice, serious hardpack yada yada, where's does that leave the System gear crowd ? Flailing, not going out, skiing very carefully and very slowly, perhaps walking..
For a more powerful binding, more appropriate to more demanding and less-than-ideal conditions pins win, simply no contest!
( BTW, NNN/BC bindings and lateral stability..is there such a thing ?..Simply miserable ..)

Stability, again? Leave it to AT gear!
XCD can never beat AT on any snow conditions.
Actually, the weakest end of 3-pin/XCD isn't so stable as the ones you're assuming.

Many BC skiers love powder much more than any other conditions. I'd like to take the cream of the snow and give the rest to my dog. However, I like plain corn snow also.

[CIMA]

NNN/BC is fun!
...but not so easy.