What boots to buy??

[lowangle al]

Boiling everything down to the width underfoot is an oversimplification. Why? Because the portion of the ski underfoot barely touches the ground when the ski is compressed. And a ski with a high of stiff camber may not even do that. This is why wax pockets or scales are much longer than would otherwise be the case.

The front and rear positions of the ski will most definitely address the snow even when partially loaded. The shovel and tail will determine how the ski handles in deeper snow. The side cut will determine turning ability. The side cut on the rear half will affect how the ski releases. The side cut itself will determine turning radius… the list goes on to include total surface area of the ski, which will determine how the ski supports skiers weight in powder or soft snow.

Then there’s rocker etc. You know all this of course @lilcliffy, but it does take time to explain and involves a few variables beyond the ski itself (binding location, pivot point, binding type, ski style, terrain etc.).

This one is a real doozie. Have you made any linked telemark turn yet Mannie?

[Manney]

You’ve come out of hiding. Where was that… Alaska? That’s where you summer. PA is where you winter.

That’s pretty messed up for a skier. Like how much snow does your part of PA actually see each winter now? Ha ha

[lowangle al]

Wrong again Nanny, I got in more ski days in Ak. then I did in Pa., I go back and forth.

[Manney]

Isn't a ski without any traction pattern easier to control downhill than one with? Maybe waxing for grip isn't ideal for your conditions, though.

Might affect speed a tiny bit. A few % maybe, depending on snow conditions.

Control? Not enough to affect edging, carving. No impact on general weighting of the ski. Maybe some minor pressure impact directly underfoot during a flat turn on very hard, compressed snow if the grip pattern doesn’t penetrate fully.

Likely to be an insignificant impact compared to the other factors (camber, stiffness, side cut, length, width, edge & base tuning).

[connyro]

Isn't a ski without any traction pattern easier to control downhill than one with? Maybe waxing for grip isn't ideal for your conditions, though.

Might affect speed a tiny bit. A few % maybe, depending on snow conditions.

Control? Not enough to affect edging, carving. No impact on general weighting of the ski. Maybe some minor pressure impact directly underfoot during a flat turn on very hard, compressed snow if the grip pattern doesn’t penetrate fully.

Likely to be an insignificant impact compared to the other factors (camber, stiffness, side cut, length, width, edge & base tuning).

This is also incorrect and reflects inexperience with the gear. One quick example is try taking scaled skis down-hill on groomed snow, packed powder, or corn. Scaled skis are usually dramatically slower and in some cases, slide more unpredictability than skis that have smooth bases. Another example that contrasts the difference between smooth and scaled bases is if the skier needs to slide backwards for whatever reason. Scales don't allow sliding back in a stable way like smooth bases.

[Manney]

Groomed snow. LOL. Is that what backcountry means to you… old guys dependent on chairs so they can shake their asses down groomers?

Waxless bases CAN be slower. They CAN also be faster. Depends on how well a waxed ski is prepped. For every 1000 waxable skis, 990 will have the wrong wax or sub-optimal wide temperature range wax. Didn’t matter as much in the floro days… the wax would cover a lot of stupidity. So minor speed difference, sure. Only when compared to an expertly prepped wax ski.

Also depends on conditions, to a large degree. Like spring skiing where they are pretty much fool proof. Never mind icing. Say this after watching too many skiers pick pine needles, dirt, and bits of leaf litter out of their klister, which as turned their skis into sandpaper planks. That stiction can affect control on a descent way more than a waxless grip zone because it is so unpredictable.

This is also something most experienced skiers have run into when their wax set up falls outside the acceptable range during a long descent (like from cold dry snow at elevation to warmer, moisture laden snow down low.

Also depends on how well the ski, camber is matched to the skier. Anyone who can’t get the pocket down will suffer on a waxed ski. Anyone overloaded while rucking will have a miserable time on a waxed ski if they prep the pocket for a normal ski sesh. Waxless IS more forgiving and CAN be faster in such cases.

Prefer waxed skis myself, but can’t write off waxless. They work really well for some… and some conditions without affecting CONTROL. Speed? Sure, a bit at times. But not control. Different thing altogether.

[connyro]

Groomed snow. LOL. Is that what backcountry means to you… old guys dependent on chairs so they can shake their asses down groomers?

Waxless bases CAN be slower. They CAN also be faster. Depends on how well a waxed ski is prepped. For every 1000 waxable skis, 990 will have the wrong wax or sub-optimal wide temperature range wax. Didn’t matter as much in the floro days… the wax would cover a lot of stupidity. So minor speed difference, sure. Only when compared to an expertly prepped wax ski.

Also depends on conditions, to a large degree. Like spring skiing where they are pretty much fool proof. Never mind icing. Say this after watching too many skiers pick pine needles, dirt, and bits of leaf litter out of their klister, which as turned their skis into sandpaper planks. That stiction can affect control on a descent way more than a waxless grip zone because it is so unpredictable.

This is also something most experienced skiers have run into when their wax set up falls outside the acceptable range during a long descent (like from cold dry snow at elevation to warmer, moisture laden snow down low.

Also depends on how well the ski, camber is matched to the skier. Anyone who can’t get the pocket down will suffer on a waxed ski. Anyone overloaded while rucking will have a miserable time on a waxed ski if they prep the pocket for a normal ski sesh. Waxless IS more forgiving and CAN be faster in such cases.

Prefer waxed skis myself, but can’t write off waxless. They work really well for some… and some conditions without affecting CONTROL. Speed? Sure, a bit at times. But not control. Different thing altogether.

Blowhard. Blablabla about waxed skis and no real response to my points about waxless other than a pathetic attempt to insult. Predictable. Johnny's got himself a real winner here.

[mca80]

@connyro, that's what I was thinking just based on intuition and what an instructor told me. What about on other types of snow, though, say deep powder? Do scales have as much impact?

@Manney, if you're touring for downhill I can't imagine you have klister underneath. And for an extended downhill, as in your example, it wouldn't take long to scrape off grip wax, if you even need to. I would think the downhill performance would be better than with scales regardless.

[fisheater]

@mca80 My experience with scales down hill is first they are slow, but the friction of the scales is always there. If a properly waxed ski is faster edge to edge, then without a doubt a scaled ski is slower edge to edge. It only makes sense.
That being said I think it is also a reasonable assumption that the more skillful skier is faster edge to edge regardless.
My preference is to the X-Skin type system for spring conditions. There is certainly less vibration on the down, and in my experience much better grip on the way up. The investment is greater. I put my 45 mm mohair on my Gamme, and didn’t use it again for a couple seasons. I put that same 45 mm on my FT X, and I loved it. I plan to buy a 30 or 35 mm mohair for the Gamme. It seems that the higher end of the industry is shifting to skins. It certainly is on the XC side. I hope Asnes keeps the Access ski on the wider ski side.
Yes, it is a matter of taste, but I didn’t like the baseball card in my spokes when I was 7 years old, and 50 plus years later I still don’t like that feeling on my skis!

[Manney]

if you're touring for downhill I can't imagine you have klister underneath. And for an extended downhill, as in your example, it wouldn't take long to scrape off grip wax, if you even need to. I would think the downhill performance would be better than with scales regardless.

Not the easiest stuff to get out of the base when you’re on the trail, @mca80. Even if you pack your steel scraper. So if you need it for the tour (which isn’t unusual in spring), some of it is going to be accompanying you for the whole sesh. Even the part where you go for it after reaching the summit.

Wish it were different, but that’s the third biggest challenge of klister. (The biggest challenge is laying it down perfectly, the second biggest challenge is getting it out of your clothes. LOL)

Agree with @fisheater about skins… even though they can ice up in the spring unless they’re very well maintained. Regrettably, people actually ski down with skins… which is less favourable than even scales.

But ppl keep confusing speed and control. Speed? Wax ski. Control? Edged ski, side cut etc. Scales, skins not a determinant of control.

The funny thing is that has all been said on TT before… without the pushback. Heck, even @connyro agreed ATT.

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