Trail breaking ski

[dave52]

With USGI's, yes sticking sometimes, I've had it piling up at times, turning the skis into lead boots! For Ingstads, I haven't noticed this really, they're the waxless version

My snow-cabulary is limited, what is "3D snow"?

Do you mean the snow is sticking to the top sheet, more than wax pocket on bottom, or both?

Your skiing under the surface of the snow, depth of the ski varies depending on density of the snow, forward speed, turning. Each effects how the snow compacts under the ski so that the ski is supported and travels in a plane that can vary up/down. If you were on hard pack you could only go forward/back or right/left.

Usually just on the bottom by wax pocket it sticks with USGIs, on rarer occasions sticking on all sides of skis

Going down steeper passages in depth on the 210 USGIs has required some TLC; they sometimes like to nose dive under the snow, and then I'm plowing and piling up sometimes to the point where it hucks me forward, onto the ground. I sometimes pull back on the tips to give lift, re-adjusting forward and back to ensure lift while going down same downward stretch, but it's kind of annoying as I like a flexed forward knee for good balance and contact.

Does this dive bombing effect happen with the NATOs?

I haven't torpedoed with the Ingstads, although I haven't toured them nearly as much as the USGIs. First season with them.

As far as prep: no prep to Ingstad WL;

Are you using the Ingstad WL in deep soft snow?
I can't imagine that anyone getting sufficient grip with the WL in deep soft snow...
(I do with my Nansen WL, but I am grip-waxing the base).

How does the grip-waxed USGI(MT65) compare to the Ingstad WL in deep soft snow?

Only had Ingstads out 2x in these conditions (so far), grip is definitely a point of dissatisfaction with the WL, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, it's not terrible but it's not great either. More thoughtful technique is needed going up, and doesn't grip as good as the USGI, however herring bone and side stepping due to weight difference and ski length is more maneuverable on the 'stads.

Also I appreciate all the comments, nice to hear others perspective. Looking forward to experimenting more, might have to wait till next season for significant snowfall. Spring skiing is fun though, nice to rip around in short sleeves ✌

[Stephen]

@lowangle al, I think you’re onto something there.
The rocker on a Vector is way different than the rocker on a Otto Sverdrup, for example.
Voile makes skis with two basic camber profiles: Early-rise-rocker and Hybrid-rocker.
I know there is a lot of information there, but here’s a link:
https://www.voile.com/blog/do-i-want-th ... id-rocker/
And below is a visual.
With the Asnes (and other brands of XC/BC) skis that have what I think is being called “Nordic rocker” here, when the skis are pressed together, the tips quite noticeably separate.

Without going into endless detail, I think the point is that skis with “Nordic rocker” are not going to be as good at trail breaking in deep, loose snow as skis that have a more supportive tip.
The tip on the ski with “Nordic rocker” is going to bend up and become a ramp that the skier has to push through the snow.

I’m quoting something I found in another topic:
posting.php?mode=quote&f=21&p=37728

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EDIT: I have been taking my rockered E99s to Mont Alta lately and they really are a blast! The long skin track is just gentle enough to climb with wax, and they are great fun on the intermediate runs and in the trees. It may be just the lighter weight but I can almost sort of jump-turn them which I can't with the old ones.

What the non-rockered E99s *are* good for is breaking trail. As pointed out elsewhere, the new (rockered) ones bob up and down in deep snow, which is tiring and annoying and makes me wonder if I should just be wearing snowshoes instead. The old heavy (non-rockered) ones just go straight forward, crushing everything in their path.

EDIT AGAIN: I switched out the Voilé bindings for NNN-BC on the non-rockered E99s giving me a fairer comparison. The reluctance to turn is still there, but what really stands out is that while they aren't good downhill skis, they are really good *trail* skis. The trail initiates the turn for you but more importantly it's useful to be able to swerve off to the to slow down, and the rockered E99s kind of suck at this as they tend to stall out when you leave the trail, especially if there is a crust under the snow somewhere, whereas the old (non-rockered) ones are a lot more stable when moving between hard-packed and deep snow.

I am guessing at this point that someone will recommend Gamme 54s which should give me the best of both worlds

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[dave52]

Had the chance to hit some trails with the Ingstads and then the USGIs in some wet but really fun conditions, 4-5" of fresh wet snow over what was crusty spring corn.

The Ingstads were a total blast!!

I followed some of the advice given here, and focused on kicking forward and through, and limiting how much I was lifting up the skis and lunging forward. Conditions were soft, and grip was solid.

I think I may have been conditioned by the USGIs to lift the skis and snowshoe around when the skis start sinking, and kind of fell back on this when I wasn't paying attention.

However, while skiing the USGIs, when I hit depth and was struggling to plow through I had to resort to stepping out again. At a certain point kicking forward was more effort than just lifting up, granted snow was somewhat wet.

I'm excited to try my Ing Crosby's in some fresh, dry, deep snow with this modified technique.

[riel]

The Ingstads were a total blast!!

I followed some of the advice given here, and focused on kicking forward and through, and limiting how much I was lifting up the skis and lunging forward. Conditions were soft, and grip was solid.

I think I may have been conditioned by the USGIs to lift the skis and snowshoe around when the skis start sinking, and kind of fell back on this when I wasn't paying attention.

However, while skiing the USGIs, when I hit depth and was struggling to plow through I had to resort to stepping out again. At a certain point kicking forward was more effort than just lifting up, granted snow was somewhat wet.

I suspect the tip rocker is one of the reasons you don't have to snowshoe your Ingstads around. The rocker in the front 40cm or so of the ski will help keep it from sinking.

The rocker may be slightly worse for breaking trail in crust, but it's fantastic in fresh snow!

[greatgt]

I find rocker decent on the down but not so good on the up....Have been saying for about 2 years they slip if you head them up a "normal" trail ......It's the rocker that causes the "slip"....so one sets the trail a bit less "up" and a bit more level as the tail sometimes slips.....and that has taken me down several times this year.....THAT is a bummer!...So I'm forced to set a more gentle trail up.....which in the long run is a good thing....Yhey respond well on the down and do OK in the flats....Non rocker does just as well in the flats but is better on the up.....As a slicer (skinny skis) can't say they do much for this oldie and I usually use a beat older ski as my go to ski....Old beat ski and an old beat telemarker go together like a hot fudge Sunday with lots of cream and a cherry on top...TM

[dave52]

I suspect the tip rocker is one of the reasons you don't have to snowshoe your Ingstads around. The rocker in the front 40cm or so of the ski will help keep it from sinking.

The rocker may be slightly worse for breaking trail in crust, but it's fantastic in fresh snow!

I'm really digging the rocker! Even when the Ingstads sink down low, driving them forward in the buried snow, the rockered tips seem to scoop up and propel themselves out of the snow... rockin' out so much that my USGIs might become my rock skis, and also dedicated to harder pack.

I've had the chance to travel around and ski them in a variety of different contexts in the past few weeks: spring corn, deep fresh snow, hardpack, breakable crust, soggy wet, brick hard pack, kind of been all the shades of the rainbow. I think I misspoke and quickly judged the Ingstads and their abilities (referencing back to my previous posts here). The deep snow conditions I had them out in earlier this year were more than likely a little over their abilities; walking through this same snow with just boots on I would've sunk in halfway up my femurs. They still hung in there but it was challenging, and also very unusual to have unsettled accumulation in that large of supply, so I think they'll be a dynamite fit for me.

Even skiing these in breakable crust has been enjoyable (more than I expected); going downhill with speed on tight trails in these conditions is a bit of a gamble with both Ingstads and USGIs, IDK if have anyone has recommendations for this, or maybe best to take it easy and respect the conditions.

Grip on the 195cm waxless Ingstads has been decent too. Only really had to adjust some on really steep ascents and if conditions are rock hard from a thaw and re-freezing. I'm in the recommended weight range according to Asnes length fit FYI.

Two big thumbs up for the Ingstad

[lowangle al]

Fwiw everyone that I passed skiing ingstads this winter seemed to really like them.

[fisheater]

Fwiw everyone that I passed skiing ingstads this winter seemed to really like them.

Allen if you’re passing them on Vectors, maybe I should have listened to you years ago and bought a set of Vectors????

[Cannatonic]

this is a long thread - did anyone mention Finnmark & Breidablikk from Asnes. They would be modern, super-light weight alternative to USGI. I'm glad to see Breidablikk comes in 210's now, I had to buy them in 200's a few years ago.

Breidablikk would be good alternative to various Voile options for turns, as long as there's no ice you don't need edges and the ski is unbeliavbly light weight.

[lowangle al]

Fwiw everyone that I passed skiing ingstads this winter seemed to really like them.

Allen if you’re passing them on Vectors, maybe I should have listened to you years ago and bought a set of Vectors????

I was skiing voile insanes with swix blue that was working well that day. Sometimes it’s just a matter of who wants to go faster, but that is my favorite waxable ski for touring. Especially trail breaking.