Of boots and such...

[bgregoire]

We welcome all opinions and types of skiing here although we have a strong tilt towards XCD. That's fine.

Why not approach XCD and Tele with as much openness and interest? Perhaps we would get more members stocked on exchanging here if that was the case?

If you open up within a few posts without being asked with things that are known triggers from a certain individual, well, you'll be seen as suspicious. I'm sorry but that's the way it goes.

I dont' understand what you are saying about opening up in a few posts and being seen as suspicious? As for myself, I just try to avoid responding to sketchy comments and triggers and keep trucking along.

[MikeK]

Ben,

The forum became what it became. I never steered it one way or another consciously. It's fine and great if it opens up in another way, but I won't force it.

When I came here I merely posted what was of interest to me, and engaged in those things that were. You can say because I am a 'mod' a steered it one way or another but that was never the case - I've never edited, deleted or influenced that in any way. It went where the wind blew it. Johnny contributed that way. I contributed that way. A lot of other people contributed that way. We never discouraged anything else, there just wasn't the interest and it's why it didn't grow.

There was a time when this forum was very negative toward a certain type of skier, but those times are long gone. We may not always see eye to eye, but it's all welcome here.

I think maybe you are misunderstanding these 'triggers'. That's fine, you perhaps aren't as close to it as I am. I never want to ban anyone on here and I never want anyone to think I'd ban someone because they ski a certain way or think a certain way. They'd be banned for being mischievous or deviant.

I can give you a list on one hand of everyone that's been banned from this forum. They were all viewed as being aliases or impersonations of a certain individual who was banned for a very good reason, and voted upon by all members who wished to at the time.

Many of these 'trolls' will go away on their own if they are ignored. Some need a little provocation to expose their true self.

[lilcliffy]

So, we should ski NNNBC, we should ski pins, we should go to antartica AND alaska, we should ski T1s, we should ski NTN. Hell, let's have fun!

Totally agree- the fact the equipment can fit the context is very true.
(exactly my frustration with "do-everything" ski technology)

And I have had fun on every type of ski tech that I have ever tried.

My passion is BC-XCD skiing on light, flexible equipment- but I still burn it up on the groomed track; and I still burn strips off the groomed hill with my family; and I have enjoyed everything in between and beyond.

At some point, and we are near, mastery is no longer about the equipment but the experience.

You are good with words man.

And to me, one gateway to improving your xcD technique is attaining speed and repeating the movement on and on. Heavier duty gear just helps make that happen safely and consistently (such as in resort skiing or bigger mountain stuff) even though the techniques you employ to turn on light gear are different than those you use on heavy stuff. I mean, its not like we are debating wether swimming or running are better, its all downhill free heel skiing. Sure its different, but its the same too.

This does not fit with my very personal experience. I don't find that downhill skiing on powerful Telemark equipment helps my downhill skills- when downhill skiing on BC-XC equipment. In fact, the more I practice on powerful Telemark- the more I find my old habits creeping back into my body- and spreading everywhere into my BC-XC skiing- then I start falling again as the skis refuse my efforts to steer them through powerful turns.

It is entirely possible that my own experience is very much limited to me. If others find that downhill skiing in powerful Telemark tech improves their downhill skiing on any equipment- that's awesome!

I do find it strange that some skiers claim that downhill skiing improves their downhill skills on BC-XC equipment- but then continue to XC ski on powerful Telemark equipment...If it really does improve- then why not take advantage of BC-XC gear when appropriate?

I can only make assumptions based on my own experience. If I use powerful downhill equipment, it's because I am skiing terrain extreme enough to want the power and stability. At this point in my life- at least temporarily- I am not routinely skiing extreme terrain- so I don't need the power.

I can tell you that if downhill skiing on Telemark equipment improved my downhill skiing on BC-XC tech- I would be doing it.

I'd like to think that I am not alone here- but I may well be!

[lilcliffy]

Apples to oranges is of little consequence... what makes YOU a better skier?

Not what gear, what learning techniques.

OH! I didn't get that from the OP...sorry man.

What makes me a better skier? What learning techniques?

I will let that swirl around in my head for a bit and get back to you on this one!

[bgregoire]

This does not fit with my very personal experience.

Also good with words sir Lilcliffy!

I don't find that downhill skiing on powerful Telemark equipment helps my downhill skills- when downhill skiing on BC-XC equipment. In fact, the more I practice on powerful Telemark- the more I find my old habits creeping back into my body- and spreading everywhere into my BC-XC skiing- then I start falling again as the skis refuse my efforts to steer them through powerful turns.

I understand where you are coming from, and your experience confirms what I am thinking. You HAVE tele-ed powerful telegear for at least a few years in the past. This experience has HELPED you become a better skier, and you have applied that experience to the XC skiing you are enjoying TODAY. Would you be as good as you are today on the down without that previous experience? i doubt it! I'm not saying we have to ski all forms of tele or free-heel all the time, but to have had them in your quiver at some point in time is a GREAT asset.

As for me, I've been XCDind & Tele-ing for as little as two seasons now (XCd for 10 years though). For me, its been important to mix up all these forms of free-heeling (including XC and skate), not only to gain experience, but to have an opportunity to ski every day regardless of the conditions out here. If i've had been tele-ing for 25 years and living in NB, I might have very well ended up dumping the tele gear and focusing on XCd too.

[connyro]

I don't find that downhill skiing on powerful Telemark equipment helps my downhill skills- when downhill skiing on BC-XC equipment. In fact, the more I practice on powerful Telemark- the more I find my old habits creeping back into my body- and spreading everywhere into my BC-XC skiing- then I start falling again as the skis refuse my efforts to steer them through powerful turns...I do find it strange that some skiers claim that downhill skiing improves their downhill skills on BC-XC equipment- but then continue to XC ski on powerful Telemark equipment...If it really does improve- then why not take advantage of BC-XC gear when appropriate?

It takes me a bit to adjust back to light XC gear after skiing heavier stuff. But not so much that it's a problem. I think that many skiers on light gear are far too timid with the downhills. Heavier gear allows you to get a feel for speed and confidence in your technique which to me is very important when turning on light gear. Also, I don't mind the lack of touring speed with my heavier setup. It is usually worth the effort when you finally get to some downhills. I want to ski down the tightest, steepest, most exciting lines on a hill and I just don't want to do that without the appropriate gear. I tend to seek out the mellower lines when on my light gear which is fun, but not my preference.

I like XC for what it's good at: going FAST while touring. I like tele for what it's good at: charging down steep challenging lines. The gray area in the middle is where a skier's judgment and desire comes into play regarding what is best for a given day of mixed skiing. Given the choice, I usually go with tele because my goals are more often than not turn oriented.

[bgregoire]

I don't find that downhill skiing on powerful Telemark equipment helps my downhill skills- when downhill skiing on BC-XC equipment. In fact, the more I practice on powerful Telemark- the more I find my old habits creeping back into my body- and spreading everywhere into my BC-XC skiing- then I start falling again as the skis refuse my efforts to steer them through powerful turns...I do find it strange that some skiers claim that downhill skiing improves their downhill skills on BC-XC equipment- but then continue to XC ski on powerful Telemark equipment...If it really does improve- then why not take advantage of BC-XC gear when appropriate?

It takes me a bit to adjust back to light XC gear after skiing heavier stuff. But not so much that it's a problem. I think that many skiers on light gear are far too timid with the downhills. Heavier gear allows you to get a feel for speed and confidence in your technique which to me is very important when turning on light gear. Also, I don't mind the lack of touring speed with my heavier setup. It is usually worth the effort when you finally get to some downhills. I want to ski down the tightest, steepest, most exciting lines on a hill and I just don't want to do that without the appropriate gear. I tend to seek out the mellower lines when on my light gear which is fun, but not my preference.

I like XC for what it's good at: going FAST while touring. I like tele for what it's good at: charging down steep challenging lines. The gray area in the middle is where a skier's judgment and desire comes into play regarding what is best for a given day of mixed skiing. Given the choice, I usually go with tele because my goals are more often than not turn oriented.

We're on the same line here Conny, even though we have different habitats!

[MikeK]

I think it's apparent that skiing more, and skiing more types of skiing makes you a better skier.

My wife is the only instance I know of who has really very little dh experience. As a consequence, her xcD does suffer. She also has less interest in this, so she doesn't work at it as much as she should.

Despite my mediocrity this year, I also ski a lot more than the average skier. People I work with who ski Nordic maybe get a out a couple times on a year like this, maybe half dozen to a dozen on a good year. Those that ski DH tend to get out a bit more, but maybe more consistently. Some go a couple times a year, the average less than a dozen and the more serious skiers around 20 or more. Then there's the people who just go for as much as they can get. I don't know many of them locally.

So anyway, whatever makes you want to ski more, is perhaps what makes you a better skier.

I tend to think the techniques you have to learn to XCD are universal to all skiing, and really are the most core parts of skiing that get lost with some of the more modern gear. They are still there, but you can get away skiing that stuff pretty well without those fundamentals of balance and staying on top of your skis.

For example, I can go ski in the backseat all day on alpine gear and I'd be able to ski every run on the mountain. Certainly not as well as I could, but I'd make turns and get through everything.

If I get in the backseat for XCD, I fall on my ass or the skis do not turn at all. There is no backseat. It's just falling or flailing.

It also seems to me although you are emphasizing a lot of toe/ankle control with XCD, your skis will still want to follow your knees. You just need to use those muscles more because they aren't locked up rigid in a plastic shell. So when you get locked up, you still know the motions, it's all the same, it's just you don't need to use those muscles as much. The foot becomes cast to the ski.

Also I feel like initiating turns and maintaining fore-aft balance becomes much more acute for XCD. It has to be or you don't turn or you fall. In Alpine it was all about (from what I was taught) driving forward into the tongue of the boot. That keeps you forward and aggressive on the skis. Your boots are naturally canted that way. As you pressured the tongue you would apply pressure to the front edges of the ski and by rolling your knees carve onto an edge. Hardest part about skiing rough or steep terrain was driving forward like that.

XCD you obviously cannot do that. You just fall forward on your face. But you just naturally have to put your weight there. There is not tongue and locked heel to tell you how much pressure you are transferring to the front edge of the ski. It forces you to feel all this stuff very subtly, or it just doesn't work.

That's kind of where I was going with my question. And I think it tend to transfer to stiffer gear... but I do think stiffer gear does give you some idea of what the skis need to do. I guess if you just have no idea, then I can see where going back and forth can definitely decrease the learning curve.

[connyro]

whatever makes you want to ski more, is perhaps what makes you a better skier.

Exactly. This is a good concise way of putting it!

[lowangle al]

whatever makes you want to ski more, is perhaps what makes you a better skier.

Exactly. This is a good concise way of putting it!

Whatever makes you want to turn more, is perhaps what makes you a better telemark skier.