Fischer E-109 vs. Asnes Ingstad

[montrealer]

this winter is looking brutal, I just need to take a quick spin to check the bindings, who knows when I'll get the chance at this point. I'm heading to Quebec over New Years, surely they'll have snow by then right????

I wouldn't hold my breath... I've heard that we'll be feeling the el niño effect until mid january or so.

I remember only getting on skis this past season a couple weeks into January.

The year before I remember having tons of snow on november 30th. It varies.

[bgregoire]

Most ski shops mount these types of skis at BP, but I am convinced most do it out convention rather than detailed knowledge of the ski. As you might know, all true XC are mounting on BP. Tele is mostly at chord, So its also about what you want to do with the ski. Its all part of the artisanry of the skier.

Well, here is Eastern Québec, a good amount of snow is falling as I write. It might not last though as its raining further South. How long and where are you headning Cannatonic? I'm based in Rimouski.

[MikeK]

Again here's where it might matter more what you are going to do with the ski...

A ski like the Gamme, I'd mount on balance regardless of where chord is... but that's just me and how I would use it.

A ski like the Ingstad, I'd most likely mount at chord, or +1 cm regardless of balance... again based on how I would use it.

Neither ski would I use for telemark. But I'd use telemark technique on each ski. The reason I'd mount the way I specified would be to bring out the attributes on each ski, on the Gamme, I'd emphasize the striding, on the Ingstad, I'd emphasize the turning.

This is along the same lines of why I'd pick a 205 or 210 for a Gamme and a 200 (or less) for an Ingstad.

If you wanted to emphasize the striding qualities of the a ski like the Ingstad, you'd go longer and most likely mount at balance point.

If you wanted to emphasize the turning aspect of the Gamme, you'd likely go a tad shorter and mount the skis at chord.

[Woodserson]

53 degrees tomorrow?!?! Bllleegghhh what a waste.

[lilcliffy]

As Ben points out- mounting on pins on center is the way to maximize efficient "kick" in classic K&G.

Mounting forward of balance- especially center-of-weight/foot- forward is an Alpine mounting approach for skiing on dense hardpack and/or groomed snow. Mounting center of weight-forward allows easier turn initiation on hard snow. Compared to Alpine setups- with telemark tech on hardpack, a balance has to be struck between the fore and aft ski and the style of telemark technique you are using. If your weight is centered on your leading foot, it will still be on the BOF on the rear ski. If you typically use an elongated telemark (heaven-forbid) then your weight on the leading foot is on the heel- which adds even more variability to determining how to balance it out. I have met many experienced performance-orientated telemark skiers (that ski on hardpack/groomed snow) that have over the years worked out their own personal recipe for mounting bindings.

And they have a different approach to mounting their powder skis! Which they move back- compared to their hardpack/groomed snow setup.

Certainly moving center weight forward of balance point facilitates "easier " turn initiation- in other words, it is easier to effectively steer a ski.

BUT- if you use a striding technique to initiate/complete telemarks (i.e. you are willing to physically lift one, or both, skis to initiate/complete turns)- then balance point feels natural because your weight is evenly distributed over the entire camber of the skis as you weight and un-weight them.

I learned to telemark on rigid plastic boots-bindings with the binding mounted aggressively forward of balance point- they were incredibly easy to turn. I find I cannot use this technique with soft Nordic boots and long xcountry skis.

To be honest I don't see any of the Asnes "backcountry" skis as being easy-turnin skis (the Storetind as the XC-ish of their "alpine touring" skis- being the exception). They are all designed to offer xcountry performance- their flex/camber and balance is all tuned to that. IMO, they are traditional backcountry-xcountry skis.

They are not hybrid skis like the S-Bounds and Karhu/Madshus XCDs- I don't believe that mounting the bindings forward of center will change that. And the potential XC performance will be seriously compromised.

I don't know if there is any way of getting away with not using some pretty trad telemark tech and technique in order to turn the Asnes'- unless you go with an extremely short ski for your weight.

Having skied on S-Bounds and Karhu/Madshus XCds mounted on both balance point and forward- there is a noticeable difference in performance. They are definitely easier to turn- mounted forward of center- but I much prefer the XC performance on center. I am unwilling to give up the XC performance- so I am quite happy to lift my skis and stride through telemarks.

[lilcliffy]

Well, here is Eastern Québec, a good amount of snow is falling as I write. .

It has been falling here steady since noon (freezing rain in southern NB)- supposed to snow until tomorrow evening...SO- I should be able to get out again tomorrow!

Crossing my fingers that the weather later in the week doesn't take it all away again.

Calling for 40+cm in northern NB!

[bgregoire]

Lilcliff, what do you mean by basic 3-pin? telemark 3-pin (rottefella & voile style) or olschool XC pins?

[lilcliffy]

Hey Ben- I mean basic telemark 3-pin (e.g. super telemark, mountaineer).

With a somewhat equivalent boot (torsionally) I don't find greater leverage with the 3-pin vs. NNNBC. (I get a lot more torsional power and binding resistance when I put on the cable)

[lilcliffy]

Some other fodder for our debate!

Here's a quote from a Norwegian skier regarding the Ingstad/Combat Nato:

"Camber means how the ski curves up from the ground to keep the kick wax out of the snow, and how stiff the curvature is, right? That's called "spenn" in Norwegian, which translates literally to "tension". I researched it a bit more. Åsnes themselves characterize the camber of Ingstad/nato combat as slight ("svakt spenn"), meaning that there's more camber than in an alpine ski but less than in xc skis meant for tracks and kick wax. Users report that there's enough camber to affect turning ability negatively and striding positively. There's always some variability between pairs, and shops use this to pick skis to suit specific needs."

...enough camber to effect turning negatively and striding positively...

...some variability between pairs- shops pick skis to suit specific needs...(sounds like your experiences Ben)

[Woodserson]

Here's an interesting line after a portion covering mounting points from An Olde Booke: "Lots of experienced cross-countrymen mount the bindings dead on the balance mark and let it go at that, knowing that a little foot-and-toe English will overcome all but gross errors in mounting."

If you grew up skiing alpine downhill I think ANY nordic or tele setup is going to feel a bit awkward when turning on hardpack. You're in the back seat compared to alpine. With big feet they move your bindings up even farther on alpine skis, but not nordic.

It depends with Alpine, moving the boot forward on the ski (like using mid-sole boot mounting points) IMO has been a trend in the past 15 years or so, much of it to minimize swing weight (for park stuff) on the skis and make it easier to initiate turns. Lots of DH/AT skiers (including me) preferred to mount-- and often were instructed to mount-- boot toe at chord center. The industry slowly started putting people forward on the skis, and depending on the ski, if one is not careful, a toe-at-chord-center would put you behind the sidecut, a weird situation for sure. I started noticing lots folks on forward mounted skis leaning back in the pow out of necessity, instead of having their weight positioned over their feet, because the mounts were forward. It happened to me initially until I got a handle on what was going on. It's been a weird cultural shit in mounting, something I never fully understood and I think it's a commercial move rather than a practical one.

Mounting toe-at-chord-center provided great powpow capabilities, a natural balance, effortless skiing. But depending on the ski you have to initiate the turn and get in on it.