How Do I Turn?

[lowangle al]

The Kongsvold has a couple things going for it. It's on the short side, it has decent sidecut and the fact that it doesn't have metal edges may make it a little softer than the others.

[wabene]

The Kongsvold has basically the same side cut as the S-Bound 98 without the scales and metal edges. Maybe you would get more smear out of this ski.

[Stephen]

these guys are actually going fast enough to put enough pressure on the skis to really carve turns (although there is also skidding):

It was the “going fast enough to put enough pressure on the skis to [contraction of “in order to”?] really carve turns” that confused me. I’ve never seen speed having anything to do with pressure (or vice versa) setting up for a turn.

In a turn? Of course.

Agreed.
And, one can’t go from “slow” in a straight line to “fast” in a turn in a short distance.
There is a continuum from turn to straight, to next turn and speed remains relatIvey constant.
So having speed before the turn carries over into the turn, with the added force that makes available to compress the ski.

[Stephen]

As for my gear, not many people here have skiied Kongsvold. And I am not terribly knowledgeable with the ski technology. Asnes says it is stiffer in midsection with soft tip. I know the sidecut is bigger than any but the Tind lineup. Is this a good one to learn with when there's powder, or would I be better off with Nansen?

Maybe this post will help with understanding the Kongsvold.
Many of the Asnes skis without a metal edge are the same geometry as another Asnes ski that does have a metal edge.
The Kongsvold does not seem to have a metal edged counterpart.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1772&start=280#p32727

[mca80]

So per Crister it seems suitable fot my purpose. To be honest, given the sidecut and minimal camber I can kick and glide ok with it (relatively). Couldn't resist going and doing about 30 more laps since we had another 3 or 4 inches fresh snow since yesterday. Set up my pack in the snow at bottom and the phone on top to video record myself. Tremendous help, learned a lot. My trailing ski was too far back, so took care to work on that and a more compact, crouching position. Sometimes my shoulders moved forward, especially if I was losing balance (notably when crossing previous tracks in a turn), and I wasn't positioned correctly over my feet. Awareness of the body goes so far--what I may think is a deep knee bend isn't so, upon watching video. The upcoming class should be real fun. May head to the Porkies once before then, I believe you can ski a little over 4mi on groomed xc trails to get around and to top of hill, then greens down about 6 or 700ft. Or may just wait and go in the days after the class. Will keep doing these stance exercises in the interim. Thanks for all the help. Woods skiing on Finnmark to the groomed tracks tomorrow, ice skating Saturday, tool around the woods with Nansen on Sunday. Oh, and that pesky job thing too.

[Stephen]

I’m no pro and there has been lots of comments re: “carve” and “skid.”

Just wanting to point out that one of the main dynamics that connects skid on one end of the “turn technique continuum” and carve on the other end is:
Edge angle.

As long as the skier has mastery and control of the input dynamics (body control, forces of gravity and energy management), he can use edge angle to transition between skid and carve.

It takes a lot of practice for the skier to be able to artfully use his skill to do what he wants.

When I posted about the telemark ski race video re: speed and carve, I was unconsciously selectively focusing on the best examples of very skilled ski racers skiing very well and looking fantastic. I can only dream of skiing that well.
Earlier comments pointed out less than ideal form in the movie, which I agree with.
And, there were a few moments of what I would expect to see in a top-level ski race, on any type of ski or type of race course.

Probably not the best moment in the video, just a random grab:
.

[Stephen]

So per Crister it seems suitable fot my purpose. To be honest, given the sidecut and minimal camber I can kick and glide ok with it (relatively). Couldn't resist going and doing about 30 more laps since we had another 3 or 4 inches fresh snow since yesterday. Set up my pack in the snow at bottom and the phone on top to video record myself. Tremendous help, learned a lot. My trailing ski was too far back, so took care to work on that and a more compact, crouching position. Sometimes my shoulders moved forward, especially if I was losing balance (notably when crossing previous tracks in a turn), and I wasn't positioned correctly over my feet. Awareness of the body goes so far--what I may think is a deep knee bend isn't so, upon watching video. The upcoming class should be real fun. May head to the Porkies once before then, I believe you can ski a little over 4mi on groomed xc trails to get around and to top of hill, then greens down about 6 or 700ft. Or may just wait and go in the days after the class. Will keep doing these stance exercises in the interim. Thanks for all the help. Woods skiing on Finnmark to the groomed tracks tomorrow, ice skating Saturday, tool around the woods with Nansen on Sunday. Oh, and that pesky job thing too.

It really sounds like you are making fantastic progress.
Body awareness.
What I think I’m doing vs, what I’m actually doing.
Trailing foot too far back.

Really shortens the learning curve!
Post some vid if you can, we can all sit back with popcorn and tell you what to do better (which is way easier than doing better, ones self)!

[mca80]

Hah, maybe a video someday--I was thinking about it actually but deleted them from phone after watching. So far as I know there are no photos or videos of me anywhere on the internet and I kind of want to keep it that way.

Progress, but a long way to go, and I don't think one ever stops learning anyway.

P.S.
I thought I was going to look a lot better on video than I did, haha. I guess feeling like I am turning alright doesn't necessarily translate to looking good doing so.

[GrimSurfer]

Hah, maybe a video someday--I was thinking about it actually but deleted them from phone after watching. So far as I know there are no photos or videos of me anywhere on the internet and I kind of want to keep it that way.

Progress, but a long way to go, and I don't think one ever stops learning anyway.

It’s about you and the sport. Nothing purer than that. Keep it going!

[TallGrass]

I’m no pro and there has been lots of comments re: “carver” and “skid.”

If it helps to peak over the fence to Alpine. Use what helps, toss the rest. Take a look over the fence at the end of the block at Water skiing for a different take, which also can help if you ever get a tow from a snow-cat/mobile. I can imagine water skiers trying tele finding even basic short leather boots or NNN shoes "damn supportive."


FYI, if you haven't, the rear hoop is for your other foot if you're using just one ski.
How come tele-skis don't have this??? Tele-mono-ski-ing??? Oo, oo! Tandem-tele-mono-ski-ing???



Anyhow...
This Alpine image is nice as one can compare the different phases of a turn even if not tele, and the extreme make for exaggerations that are easy to identify like legs swinging at hips (ball socket, knees can't as they're "hinges"), edge bight, torso orientation (shoulders) down hill, head and eyes (in comp it's next gate or two versus down the "fall line"), and so on.



Edge control around 0:25. It's downhill, but sliding (side-slipping, skid) versus edging (carve, etc.) is easy to see. Far easier to do that exercise with wider skis locked into alpine boots than skinny nordics with leather 3-pins and laces, but is possible.


Downhill again (not tele), but much of physi... stuff is similar.


The big difference is the heel is not locked down, and the degree of strapped in (to foot, up to ankle, up to shin) can vary, so alpine boots can lever the whole ski for balance, whereas stance (stagger footed) is more important in tele.

Regardless, the tighter or faster a turn, the more lean is required on single/narrow track things like skis and bicycles to avoid flipping, and why wide-footprint things like cars and trucks "roll" to the outside of a turn. Doing a "snowplow" or "wedge" with skis is a way of creating a triangle footprint for better stability (i.e. less balance required) when starting out or inconsistent snow (novel experience or novel terrain).

Hips can always pivot or "swing" sideways to affect edge (bite) or slip, ankles pivot or "roll" to a lesser degree if not boot-restricted, and knees hopefully never for three-letter-medical-abbreviation reasons. Knees can "scissor" vertically though like in that last photo of the book cover above.

Just stuff to be mindful of when new to avoid injury, even if that means intentionally "falling" to avoid awkward joint movements snowballing into "unnatural" ones, especially when there's no adjustable DIN release setting.

It's a real switch for the human end (me) going from an Alpine boot and skis to 3pin laced leather Merrils on 205 Karhu Kodiak Edges (metal edge in middle of ski) ala yesterday, even if the snow-side end functions basically the same.