Soft shell jackets for skiing

[TheMusher]

This Arc'teryx Phsiphon FL has been a killer for me in all sorts of conditions , with addition of a vest if things get windy. Works mostly always until it gets gore-tex windy. Too hot above 10c I'd say.

I grab this in 80% of skiing situations. The rest is gore-tex..

It's discontinued now, but think it may have a spiritual descendant with another name.

More breathable than Gore Tex Infinium, so you need a certain exertion/sweat to appreciate the added breathability.

Whether it's worth the extra bucks is a personal matter of course..

Link: https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/reviews/ ... n-fl-hoody

[mca80]

Merino, as a base or intermediate layer, is unbeatable. It wicks, it transpires, it retains warmth. Would I wear merino as an outer layer? I have, in milder (0 to -5C). And it is far more comfortable than a manmade shell. Would I do it colder than that? Nope. Because it has to be exceptionally dense to block the wind. That translates to weight and breathability issues.

Worsted wool will still breathe better than any of the plastic products, and do a fair job of windblock. It will be relatively heavy though, that's for sure. I have a button down made by Columbia which is a very dense weave of 100% wool which is my outer garment for all the xc I have done thus far. On really windy days I do wish I had something better, but it works ok. Also, having multiple layers in itself does a little to stop wind. I wear Johnson Woolen Mills pants. Theyre great. On exceptionally cold or windy days I put on a merino long underwear for underneath and have no issues.

Blue wax: wool boxers, wool pants, midweight wool socks, wool tshirt, lightweight wool midlayer, wool button down, wool baseball cap, lightweight wool mittens.

Green wax: above but swap midweight for mittens and midlayer and add a real thin wool liner sock.

Low end of green wax: above but maybe a wool stocking cap instead of ballcap, perhaps a wool vest, and lightweight wool long underwear under the wool pants.

For the resort ski you can't beat shirtless with red shorts and stocking cap

[GrimSurfer]

Merino, as a base or intermediate layer, is unbeatable. It wicks, it transpires, it retains warmth. Would I wear merino as an outer layer? I have, in milder (0 to -5C). And it is far more comfortable than a manmade shell. Would I do it colder than that? Nope. Because it has to be exceptionally dense to block the wind. That translates to weight and breathability issues.

Worsted wool will still breathe better than any of the plastic products, and do a fair job of windblock. It will be relatively heavy though, that's for sure. I have a button down made by Columbia which is a very dense weave of 100% wool which is my outer garment for all the xc I have done thus far. On really windy days I do wish I had something better, but it works ok. Also, having multiple layers in itself does a little to stop wind. I wear Johnson Woolen Mills pants. Theyre great. On exceptionally cold or windy days I put on a merino long underwear for underneath and have no issues.

Blue wax: wool boxers, wool pants, midweight wool socks, wool tshirt, lightweight wool midlayer, wool button down, wool baseball cap, lightweight wool mittens.

Green wax: above but swap midweight for mittens and midlayer and add a real thin wool liner sock.

Low end of green wax: above but maybe a wool stocking cap instead of ballcap, perhaps a wool vest, and lightweight wool long underwear under the wool pants.

For the resort ski you can't beat shirtless with red shorts and stocking cap

I’d go along with all that!

The one thing I never leave home without is my Icebreaker (NZ merino) lightweight balaclava. That thing works from 0C (rolled up as a cap or down as a buff) to -30C (without a hood). My Woolpower (Swedish merino) mitt liners are pretty special to me too.

I’d like to try out Filson (Seattle, WA) wool jackets at some point but they don’t yet have any designs suitable for XC. More rancher and urban cuts and weights. Very tight weaves, some of which look reasonably thin and light.

[mca80]

Filson makes great products but they're hella expensive. And yes, not really suitable to xc wear. Icebreaker is good. Unfortunately all this stuff is rather pricey nowadays. I had the good fortune many years ago of finding Terramar tshirts and boxers, which were half wool half rayon, on clearance at sierratradingpost.com. I think I bought 20 each of the boxers and tshirts at the time for between 5 and 10 bucks each.

[Slidey_Hiker]

My current layer system is a pretty standard spandexy type base layer, and a thin wool sweater from my dad's time in the service, and then dress for conditions of the day.

Picked up a vest in the fall that has dwr stretch nylon in the front and wool in the back to vent heat. So far it's worked great hiking, hunting, climbing rock and ice and now skiing. With the vest I think adding a polartec type fleece will carry my through all but the windiest coldest days NH has to offer. Same company that makes the vest had a similar pant setup.

You should check out Ragged Mountain Equipment in Intervale if you haven't already. Lots of their apparel seems made for high activity and they make it right there in the shop. Bonus is that they have Åsnes in stock.

[corlay]

Thanks, but that looks pretty heavy and not so breathable. Have you compared it to a hard shell? How well does it pack down?

The softshell I mentioned does not contain an intermediate gore-tex membrane, which as I understand it, can be a real "breathability killer".

Is the Mission jacket at the top-tier of breathabilty for softshells? I have no clue.

But it does breathe some, for sure, and I have had no complaints.

packability? This probably isn't the right gear to select if you want something to pack-down to the size of a navel orange, for example. I'm pretty sure it is not one of those "roll-up and stuff into its own pocket" type of jackets.

[Theme]

Materials selection is always about use case. Some materials can be dreadful in XC or XCD but superb in DH. Some materials can be dreadful in very cold conditions but brilliant in cool conditions.

This brilliantly hits the spot.

I am hesitant to suggest anything for XCD as I am not that well educated or experienced in this sport yet.

But for XC I have found many good solutions. Currently I am working on a superlight windproof breathable jacket for backcountry XC endeavors/everyday use.

In the future there will also be something for Expeditions/possibly better for XCD.

Main things to think about. A windproof jacket cannot be 100% windproof if you want it to breathe. For XC 10-15CFM rating seems to be the better overall option in cold weather, whereas in cool/warm weather 20-40CFM wins. This all very much depends on your layering system, windspeed and temperature, as well as on how heavily you plan to sweat. For higher winds, a lower CFM is preferred. The jacket you see in my profile pic is about 7CFM and it was just right for -20°C and 20m/s windspeed with a lightweight grid fleece and Alpha 90 midlayer. Anything colder or higher wind it would have left me cold. But in the springtime, around freezing with sunlight, I could not wear the jacket. Packability came into play.

In those crappy conditions I anyways usually will be using an ultralightweight waterproof shell jacket (Montbell Torrent Flier - though I would prefer Storm Cruiser for the pockets) I anyways have with me - it will deal with the colder temps better for whwn it is needed. When it is needed - for general use, waterproofs are usually not great. Armpit zippers ARE A MUST. Also on some less breathable softshells. But back to topic, idea with my jacket is it will deal with MOST of what one encounters on XC adventures. It can still have some snow on it, especially below -5°C. Most adventures happen below that. But most of us will not be advancing in the bad conditions as described above. If one is skilled enough or gets caught off guard, they can just pull on the shell for a while. There will probably later be a more brrathable summer/higher output activity jacket too - though on that it may be wise to strip the features down to compete in lightweights.

I have used a thicker softshell, about 600g for the jacket before, and with pit zips it was good on most encountered weather. In freezing rain and mixed snow at freezing it wet through after a while. Impossible to dry in the field. Now I prefer a two jacket system with less weight combined, more packability and easier drying. The lightweights will dry on you as you continue skiing. The heavier a jacket, the more moisture it will absorb. Same goes for all other layers too.

I am however, not fond of super ultra light. For winter especially, durability in falls and higher speeds, features to keep your gear warm/accessible and better ventilation options is a key. Someone may rock a 70g SUL wind anorak which will tear as soon as they catch it on a branch once. And one may have to fill their pack side pockets with gear and potentially lose them in a fall to keep em accessible. I am aiming at 100-200g with more thought on enough, not too much durability for the use case, and better features for the intended use. Currently thr hood rim is an issue - I want it stiffer and more protective, but with lightweights it is hard to do.

The Expedition weight jacket I am working on soon, depending on what quantities we can get of the fabric for it, will be waterproof and resemble a softshell. And actually breathe. I have some samples with me and I can actually breathe through it. There are some fascinating, mechanical fabric techbologies arriving to the market that allow this. Again, it is not going to be as breathable as a breathable windproof, but fall in the category of maybe 5-8CFM. There are some wetting out worries I still have for the fabric, and how it behaves with waterproofness while stretched. But very promising at this time. Could achieve 300-350g which is acceptable for a lightweight rain jacket too. Fully featured maybe 450g.

Not working for any major brand, though. A small Finnish startup, with our factory also located in Finland instead of cheaper labour. Definitely not going to be cheap, but, for you North Americans, Varuste is our first retailer. Currently we are only selling the best ultralight rain skirt on the planet, designed and tested by yours truly - probably not an interest to most ski enthusiasts! I just happen to do a lot of long-distance hiking too. Hope to launch some more gear this winter - for example my VBL socks are on their second prototype round in testing currently. Small tweaks to fit left to make for the third round. Durability seems very promising.

We are called Northern Lite, producing thought-out lightweight equipment for summer & winter hikers. Aiming to transition through recycled materials to biosynthetics and biodegradables. Aiming to keep textile production closer to home. We don't yet have our homepage in English, but at least Varuste has the product pages translated!

I'll definitely update as soon as we have other gear that may interest skiers. Hope it is okay to mention this here - the last thing I want to do is to push people to buy gear they don't want or need Feel free to message me and voice your worries, if you have found some gear category be insufficient, or there is some features missing or bothering you on a piece of gear. Definitely want to take this context into account with the designs.

[snow-mark]

Ok, what I’ll take away from all the posts is that soft shells still aren’t great. I have my layering system pretty well dialed in with base layers, fleece, insulating layers and my beloved OR Foray. Was just hoping to see if there’s something packable that might fit in between fleece and the Foray. Maybe I’ll experiment, but will probably stick with what I have (and buy a new Foray as mine is getting pretty beat up). I don’t venture into Colorado backcountry without waterproof layers, so the Foray is always in my pack (or on me). (I’d recommend that nobody ever go into backcountry without waterproof layers, but realize that’s a debate).

Thanks all.

[snow-mark]

Thanks, but that looks pretty heavy and not so breathable. Have you compared it to a hard shell? How well does it pack down?

The softshell I mentioned does not contain an intermediate gore-tex membrane, which as I understand it, can be a real "breathability killer".

Is the Mission jacket at the top-tier of breathabilty for softshells? I have no clue.

But it does breathe some, for sure, and I have had no complaints.

packability? This probably isn't the right gear to select if you want something to pack-down to the size of a navel orange, for example. I'm pretty sure it is not one of those "roll-up and stuff into its own pocket" type of jackets.

I don’t mean to criticize your choices. Everybody has to dial in what they use for their own preferences. I have a couple of jackets that I think are similar to that one (i.e., relatively heavy soft shells) and they don’t work for me for XCD (though I like one of them for lift-served downhill skiing). I was hoping to ID a more packable, more breathable version. Thanks!

[GrimSurfer]

Materials selection is always about use case. Some materials can be dreadful in XC or XCD but superb in DH. Some materials can be dreadful in very cold conditions but brilliant in cool conditions.

This brilliantly hits the spot.

I am hesitant to suggest anything for XCD as I am not that well educated or experienced in this sport yet.

But for XC I have found many good solutions. Currently I am working on a superlight windproof breathable jacket for backcountry XC endeavors/everyday use.

In the future there will also be something for Expeditions/possibly better for XCD.

Main things to think about. A windproof jacket cannot be 100% windproof if you want it to breathe. For XC 10-15CFM rating seems to be the better overall option in cold weather, whereas in cool/warm weather 20-40CFM wins. This all very much depends on your layering system, windspeed and temperature, as well as on how heavily you plan to sweat. For higher winds, a lower CFM is preferred. The jacket you see in my profile pic is about 7CFM and it was just right for -20°C and 20m/s windspeed with a lightweight grid fleece and Alpha 90 midlayer. Anything colder or higher wind it would have left me cold. But in the springtime, around freezing with sunlight, I could not wear the jacket. Packability came into play.

In those crappy conditions I anyways usually will be using an ultralightweight waterproof shell jacket (Montbell Torrent Flier - though I would prefer Storm Cruiser for the pockets) I anyways have with me - it will deal with the colder temps better for whwn it is needed. When it is needed - for general use, waterproofs are usually not great. Armpit zippers ARE A MUST. Also on some less breathable softshells. But back to topic, idea with my jacket is it will deal with MOST of what one encounters on XC adventures. It can still have some snow on it, especially below -5°C. Most adventures happen below that. But most of us will not be advancing in the bad conditions as described above. If one is skilled enough or gets caught off guard, they can just pull on the shell for a while. There will probably later be a more brrathable summer/higher output activity jacket too - though on that it may be wise to strip the features down to compete in lightweights.

I have used a thicker softshell, about 600g for the jacket before, and with pit zips it was good on most encountered weather. In freezing rain and mixed snow at freezing it wet through after a while. Impossible to dry in the field. Now I prefer a two jacket system with less weight combined, more packability and easier drying. The lightweights will dry on you as you continue skiing. The heavier a jacket, the more moisture it will absorb. Same goes for all other layers too.

I am however, not fond of super ultra light. For winter especially, durability in falls and higher speeds, features to keep your gear warm/accessible and better ventilation options is a key. Someone may rock a 70g SUL wind anorak which will tear as soon as they catch it on a branch once. And one may have to fill their pack side pockets with gear and potentially lose them in a fall to keep em accessible. I am aiming at 100-200g with more thought on enough, not too much durability for the use case, and better features for the intended use. Currently thr hood rim is an issue - I want it stiffer and more protective, but with lightweights it is hard to do.

The Expedition weight jacket I am working on soon, depending on what quantities we can get of the fabric for it, will be waterproof and resemble a softshell. And actually breathe. I have some samples with me and I can actually breathe through it. There are some fascinating, mechanical fabric techbologies arriving to the market that allow this. Again, it is not going to be as breathable as a breathable windproof, but fall in the category of maybe 5-8CFM. There are some wetting out worries I still have for the fabric, and how it behaves with waterproofness while stretched. But very promising at this time. Could achieve 300-350g which is acceptable for a lightweight rain jacket too. Fully featured maybe 450g.

Not working for any major brand, though. A small Finnish startup, with our factory also located in Finland instead of cheaper labour. Definitely not going to be cheap, but, for you North Americans, Varuste is our first retailer. Currently we are only selling the best ultralight rain skirt on the planet, designed and tested by yours truly - probably not an interest to most ski enthusiasts! I just happen to do a lot of long-distance hiking too. Hope to launch some more gear this winter - for example my VBL socks are on their second prototype round in testing currently. Small tweaks to fit left to make for the third round. Durability seems very promising.

We are called Northern Lite, producing thought-out lightweight equipment for summer & winter hikers. Aiming to transition through recycled materials to biosynthetics and biodegradables. Aiming to keep textile production closer to home. We don't yet have our homepage in English, but at least Varuste has the product pages translated!

I'll definitely update as soon as we have other gear that may interest skiers. Hope it is okay to mention this here - the last thing I want to do is to push people to buy gear they don't want or need Feel free to message me and voice your worries, if you have found some gear category be insufficient, or there is some features missing or bothering you on a piece of gear. Definitely want to take this context into account with the designs.

Looking forward to reading more about the jackets you’re developing.

I suppose one of the challenges is that requirements vary across the body.

Extremities need a bit more protection because they have limited thermal mass. The main part of the body doesn’t lack for that when XC skiing but people can make purchasing decisions based on how the body “feels” in the store (they only find out how it performs after the point of sale).

Having a DWR on the hood and shoulders is nice… my hood only goes up if it’s extremely cold or snowing hard. IDK if that’s what other people do though. But this is when I notice the difference between waterproof, water resistant, and wetting.

The back is tricky. It can be an ideal area for venting, but that’s defeated somewhat when a backpack is worn.

Incorporating all these different needs in a jacket might make it hard to achieve a uniform look and feel. The worst approach, I’m not my opinion, is taken by Cotopaxi (patchwork ugly but not actually featuring different materials in different areas to make a functional difference).

One suggestion would be to al least have 2 way zippers for the underarms and any panels. Something with a flat leather or nylon tab at the end (the really slim line pulls are too hard to “find” with a gloved hand). Wind skirts are nice because they can help control drafts around the kidneys when the jacket is unzipped from below (2 way zippers there too).

Zippers add to the price because they cost more to buy and a lot more to install… but we know that they can offset other design and material constraints…

Mesh behind all the zip areas (other than the main zipper) is a nice touch… another high cost labour issue.