The NNN/BC Truth Thread

[lilcliffy]

For me its been a matter of re-programming my brain and my body.

Learning to telemark on rigid boots/bindings gave me all kinds of habits that are not truly Nordic- they are really a hybrid between Alpine and Nordic techniques that can only be done with rigid boots/bindings.

I have returned to my roots: I am a Nordic strider- xcountry stride and telemark stride. A diagonal stride becomes a telemark and vice-versa depending on the terrain and snow conditions. I am even beginning to find that I am using the telemark opportunistically on relatively gentle terrain. For example- if I lunge forward on a classic xcountry diagonal stride, and find I need a little more stability in my glide- I shift some weight back to my rear leg (i.e. telemark position). I am discovering that switching to NNNBC and focusing on my xcountry technique- I am using the telemark all over the place.

IME/IMO- the NNNBC and SNS-adv offer at least as effective downhill performance as a classic 75mmNN 3 pin binding.

I routinely make telemark turns on NNNBC on rolling to moderate terrain, with the occasional, relatively short, steep descent.

I have yet to try very steep downhill runs on NNNBC, in truly mountainous terrain. Considering it for next winter...

[MikeK]

The one thing I find amazing is once you get this, you start doing a lot less step turns on flat terrain. You can literally do the angled diagonal stride as long as you have at least some forward momentum.

It's probably good practice but I find things happen way too fast when the going gets steep - it's a matter of balance, muscle memory and quick reactions to get it to work. I'll let you know when I get there...

[lilcliffy]

Oh- just so I attempt to avoid any 3pin backlash- I am not suggesting that NNNBC offers the same level of downhill stability as a 3-pin cable binding. I was comparing the NNNBC/SNS-adv to the non-cable 3pin NN binding.

Up until this point I have assumed that I will continue to use 3pc bindings in steep mountainous terrain...

[Ron Cole]

The one thing I find amazing is once you get this, you start doing a lot less step turns on flat terrain. You can literally do the angled diagonal stride as long as you have at least some forward momentum.

It's probably good practice but I find things happen way too fast when the going gets steep - it's a matter of balance, muscle memory and quick reactions to get it to work. I'll let you know when I get there...

How much fuckin' time ya think we got anyways you big ol' alpiner you!

[Johnny]

Ahhh...!!!
Thanks to everyone for showing me the NNNBC truth!

That was not a scientific test, as I don't have the proper tools to measure force and pressure. But I put the exact same boots on the skis, one Alaska 75mm and one Alaska NNN BC.

Playing around with the boots on the skis, the results were very clear:

Pins versus NNNBC:

1- Vertical resistance: Much better on NNN BC
2- Lateral torsion: MUCH better on NNN BC
3- Leverage/edge control: MUCH better on NNN BC!

Sorry Ron...

[MikeK]

Johnny - if you wanted to be REALLY COOL, you could mount one set of test skis up with a NNN on one ski and 3 pin on the other and go out and actually ski them!

One thing where I think you'll see the biggest difference in axial torsion i.e. twisting the boot along the axis of the ski. This is primarily what will cause the ski to edge. While the binding may not be able to provide as much leverage, the boot sole itself is much stiffer in torsion (like the CF cowboy boot).

And despite the NN having what is perceived as a wider plate to roll the ski on edge, this only works well if the boot is torsionally stiff BUT you are limited to the width of the boot. The ball of your foot is what really transfers the energy - with the wide plates on the magnums, the boot transfers nearly as much torque as it would with NN plate.

Because most of your pivoting action is limited to that little bar, you can have a much stiffer toe are in the boot, which in turn transfers more energy to the ski.

Lateral stiffness should be better on NN, but when the ball of the foot is on the NNN binding plate, most the energy is transferred through the ridges on the mount plate. There is maybe a millimeter or so of slop, but when skiing it's almost imperceptible because the toe of the boot adds enough stiffness to make it feel linear. Once the sole locks with those ridges, it's very stiff laterally.

[connyro]

Johnny - if you wanted to be REALLY COOL, you could mount one set of test skis up with a NNN on one ski and 3 pin on the other and go out and actually ski them!

One thing where I think you'll see the biggest difference in axial torsion i.e. twisting the boot along the axis of the ski. This is primarily what will cause the ski to edge. While the binding may not be able to provide as much leverage, the boot sole itself is much stiffer in torsion (like the CF cowboy boot).

And despite the NN having what is perceived as a wider plate to roll the ski on edge, this only works well if the boot is torsionally stiff BUT you are limited to the width of the boot. The ball of your foot is what really transfers the energy - with the wide plates on the magnums, the boot transfers nearly as much torque as it would with NN plate.

Because most of your pivoting action is limited to that little bar, you can have a much stiffer toe are in the boot, which in turn transfers more energy to the ski.

Lateral stiffness should be better on NN, but when the ball of the foot is on the NNN binding plate, most the energy is transferred through the ridges on the mount plate. There is maybe a millimeter or so of slop, but when skiing it's almost imperceptible because the toe of the boot adds enough stiffness to make it feel linear. Once the sole locks with those ridges, it's very stiff laterally.

Good food for thought MikeK. This has me thinking I need to upgrade my NNN-BC boots to something more useful than the Rossi X2's I currently struggle with.

[Johnny]

Johnny - if you wanted to be REALLY COOL, you could mount one set of test skis up with a NNN on one ski and 3 pin on the other and go out and actually ski them!

I couldn't do that, one of my legs if a lot weaker than the other one...

The NN duckbill may be larger, so we might think this would give more 'axial torsion' and leverage... But on the other hand, the duckbill itself is very easy to twist in any direction... So power is more easily transfered with NNNBC's bars, despite it's smaller width...

But yeah, it has a lot to do with boots... (And the skier... ; )

[MikeK]

I'm not sure how good the X2s are... but I used some Alpina 1550s the first time I tried NNN-BC and they were terrible. It gave me a really bad impression of the boots and bindings but having gone to something much better, I can say there is a HUGE difference.

My suggestion is if you want a really good touring/'meadow skipping' rig, get something mid-width XCD like the Eon/Rossi BC90/Fischer S78/88 (single camberish), a pair of Alaksa NNN, and NNN-BC Magnums. Wow! You can K+G like a maniac and still handle some serious hills if you are brave enough. It won't be as stout as something wider and stiff boots, but it's a really fun compromise for skiing rolling terrain.

I forget what that article lilcliffy had posted said about Svartisen vs the Alaska in the NNN version, but if the sole was of similar stiffness, the cuff on the Svartisen really does help and doesn't impede K+G much at all. The Alaska you really need to drive from your toes (BOF/below the ankle). The ankle stiffness is very soft.

[MikeK]

Johnny - if you wanted to be REALLY COOL, you could mount one set of test skis up with a NNN on one ski and 3 pin on the other and go out and actually ski them!

I couldn't do that, one of my legs if a lot weaker than the other one...

The NN duckbill may be larger, so we might think this would give more 'axial torsion' and leverage... But on the other hand, the duckbill itself is very easy to twist in any direction... So power is more easily transfered with NNNBC's bars, despite it's smaller width...

But yeah, it has a lot to do with boots... (And the skier... ; )

You'd have to switch bindings L&R and take your weak leg out of the equation...

There are certainly boots with a much stiffer bill that will transfer the power better, but they are almost all plastic options these days, and certainly don't give the xc ability you have with leathers.

We saw the trend in the article lilcliffy posted from Norway? that showed the boot comparison between NNN and NN for the same models. Also less stiffness in the 3 pin. Why? You'd be taking years to break in a pair of stiff sole pin boots and tearing up your heels with blisters. To get at least similar touring ability the NN has to be much softer.

The Norwegians are light years ahead of us with this stuff. We just get their scraps.