This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips / Telemark Francais Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web since 1998. East, West, North, South, Canada, US or Europe, Backcountry or not.
This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips / Telemark Francais Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web since 1998. East, West, North, South, Canada, US or Europe, Backcountry or not.
This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web. We have fun here, come on in and be a part of it.
Equally weighting your skis is just a starting point. If you don’t have the skill to equally weight them, how are you going to have the skill to fine tune how you vary the pressure on them. Skis don’t need to be equally weighted, but they do need enough weight on them to make them work. It all goes back to the basics of staying centered and being able adjust the weight on each ski as required or desired. If you can’t control how you pressure your skis you’re not going to master “b” tele, as I see it.
When teaching skiing to beginners, whether it be alpine or nordic, the concept of "equal weighting" can be a useful starting point. However, when discussing with experienced skiers, using the term "equal weighting" can be misleading when talking about B-tele, as it is a term more commonly used in alpine skiing.
If you've watched TH's videos, you may have noticed that he never stops moving and continuously makes turns. In this type of situation, the concept of "equal weighting" may not be as helpful in understanding the techniques of B-tele.
The flowing river never stops and yet the water never stays the same.
I agree the above video is not b tele. It looks like it but the weighting of the skis is “a” tele for sure. Also, in Rods video, i thought that move could have been either a or b, depending on how you pressure your skis. This confirms my belief that the difference between the two is how you pressure(weight) your skis. For b tele you need to be better centered and you also need to be more in touch witH your edges/ bases than a tele. There is also a difference in how you scrub speed, and in h.ow your skis interact with the snow in general.
I agree that the term “equal weighting” may not be accurate. It should be “proper weighting” Before you can get to proper weighting I think you need to find equal weighting.
I agree the above video is not b tele. It looks like it but the weighting of the skis is “a” tele for sure. Also, in Rods video, i thought that move could have been either a or b, depending on how you pressure your skis. This confirms my belief that the difference between the two is how you pressure(weight) your skis. For b tele you need to be better centered and you also need to be more in touch witH your edges/ bases than a tele. There is also a difference in how you scrub speed, and in h.ow your skis interact with the snow in general.
Your analysis seems correct.
In the video, the skier stretches their body, making small movements though, and simultaneously switches the lead and rear skis during the crossover. This is the technique most commonly used by A-tele skiers. In B-tele, however, skiers contract their bodies at the same moment.
The flowing river never stops and yet the water never stays the same.
Here is another common misunderstanding of A-tele skiers.
After watching TH's fast movements, some may think that he is doing like the following:
The following analogy is a bit different because the boots have contact on a single disk, which allows them to be rotated at the same time. However, in reality, the boots on the skis are separate so that the skis cannot be moved like they would on a disk.
The flowing river never stops and yet the water never stays the same.
The below technique was posted in another thread. I comment on it here because this is a comparison of a-tele and b-tele techniques. Or maybe b-tele and d-tele, I don’t know.
First, you gotta be in the driver's seat, not the back seat. Pelvis forward. To learn what I mean by "pelvis forward," start downhill on a gentle slope and shuffle your feet. Turn left and right, shuffling the entire way through the turns.
If you're in the back seat, you won't be able to shuffle through the turn. You'll get stuck and have to wedge or snowplow through the turn. Then you'll be able to start shuffling again once you're through the turn. The steeper the slope, the more this effect is exaggerated. If your pelvis is forward, then you'll be able to shuffle all the way through the turns. Think "pelvis thrust."
The second step is learning to transition to the outside edge and ski on the "outside edge."
What do I mean "outside edge?" Just to define terms, think of this: You're in a tele turn to the right. Your right edges are the "inside edges" and your left edges are the "outside edges."
Practice this technique [Exercise - No Lead Change] to learn to roll onto and turn on the "outside edges." Obviously when you roll into the "outside edges" they become the "inside edges," so the wording can get confusing. But if you watch this video you 'll get the idea. Practice until you're very comfortable with rolling from edge to edge while keeping the same ski forward. Remember to carve on the "outside edges" and not skid.
The third step is learning how to transition from one turn to the next.
When you're finishing a turn and you're getting ready to start the next turn, roll onto the "outside edges" and initiate a turn in the new direction -- on the outside edges (which then become the inside edges). As soon as you approach the fall line (or when ever it feels right to you), pull your forward ski back. This is a lightning-fast lead change.
Pass down and across the fall line, then immediately start a turn the other way. Your goal is to stay in the fall line, instead of doing the typical tele traverse perpendicular to the fall line.
You should stay in contact with the slope and carve your way down the fall line, riding on your edges. No need for jumping up, exaggerated unweighting, skidding your rear ski, or any other bull.
So.... how do you control your speed if you're barreling down the fall line?
Pole plants and knee/body position.
There is point in the turn, right before you roll onto your outside edges, when you have the opportunity to throw in an extra tilt on your inside edges. Kinda like a dynamic hockey stop brake. To do this, roll your knees slightly uphill for a second and get yourself more on edge, slow down, and then roll onto the outside edges.
I also use my pole plant to assist in this maneuver. The pole plant is the period at the end of sentence, announcing "I'm done with this turn." Convention says that you keep your shoulders square to the fall line, and that's good advice, but I reach across my body slightly with my outside arm to wind up my body slightly in getting more on edge. Shoulders stay square down the fall line. Then I "open up" (throw that outside arm out to the outside) and plant my pole. The pole plant signals the roll onto the outside edges.
@Harry M I had an opportunity to try out the second step for a hour or so on Friday. That was on an ungroomed green like hill with about 25 cm of snow, 15-20 cm powder on top of consolidated.
The exercise (no lead change) went alright. I think you can ski it in many ways depending on how you weight your skis at the different stages of a turn.
In the exercise, the ends of turns felt similar to b-tele. However, in b-tele you clearly pressure your inner ski at the end of a turn. In the no-lead-change drill, you could pressure which ski you like whenever you like.
I believe the second step teaches you to carve the outer edge of your inner ski. When starting to learn b-tele, edging was one of my two main challenges. And the other challenge was counterbalancing when angulating, which directly contributed to weak edging, too. So I think the no-lead-changes drill could help you to learn b-tele because edging is crucial there, like in any downhill skiing,
I think the main purpose of a b-tele back-step is to bring you to a skidding / braking / tele stance where you have weight on your inner ski, ie. your mountain side ski. However, Telehiro does not take a long step backwards, but rather cross-steps laterally, sideways, with the inner leg.
From a tall stance, you have more options to unweight than than from a dropped-knee tele stance. You can create a free fall just by contracting your legs there. See the videos above.
The three steps sound like good technique and a good sequence. Is the first same step same as the following exercise?
Certainly looks like it
At least the segment at 1:50-2:00
The rest of it, no so much
Based on the discussion cited above, telehiro seems to have taught the first step, too. So it feels and looks that pelvis use is same in both the techniques, "Santa Fe" and b-tele.
Starting at 5:08 was the way I skied tele.
I learned this from a woman instructor at Santa Fe back about 30 years ago.
I could not yet work my way to the third step yet. However, I wrote myself a summary of the third step after practicing the second step (citation below).
1. Roll onto the outside edges of your skis, when you are finishing a turn. When you have started a tele turn to the right, your right edges are the "inside edges" and your left edges are the "outside edges."
2. Once you've entered the next turn, pull your forward foot back. There's no stepping forward.
3. Right before you roll onto your outside edges, you have an opportunity to brake. Roll your knees slightly uphill for a second, to get yourself more on edge. Slow down, and then roll onto the outside edges.
The most obvious difference between the "Santa Fe" technique and b-tele seems to be that here you drop a knee, whereas in b-tele you ski from a tall stance. For this reason, I think the forward and backward movements of the SF technique do not apply as is directly to skiing in a tall stance.
What would "Santa Fe" look like, when skied from a tall stance? See shorter version below, with fore / aft adjustments removed, for an idea.
1. Roll onto the outside edges of your skis, when you are finishing a turn. When you have started a tele turn to the right, your right edges are the "inside edges" and your left edges are the "outside edges."
2. Right before you roll onto your outside edges, you have an opportunity to brake. Roll your knees slightly uphill for a second, to get yourself more on edge. Slow down, and then roll onto the outside edges.
A tall stance modification of the "Santa Fe" technique
Looking at the shorter version, you focus on your edges in a transition here. That makes the technique look like a carving based approach.
By contrast, in b-tele you release your edges with an unweighted tele pivot. For me this difference seems somewhat superficial however. How to release, each situation and turn are different.
I was told that I had a nice technique, in the fall line, fast transitions, carving from inside to outside edges
...
so far I haven't seen anyone discussing fast transitions, or skiing the way I skied. I see a lot of people advocating low crouched positions, two-stepping across the fall line instead of carving down the fall line, skidding through turns, etc. I haven't been too impressed, frankly.
In b-tele, you do not necessarily skid, if you do not need to brake. Like in the other technique, you skid and brake, when you need to. Well in b-tele you always move through the braking stance, but how much you brake varies.
I disagree on "nobody discussing fast transitions". For example, the citation below shows that you can ski tighter turns with b-tele than a-tele. I am a b-tele beginner, and my narrowest b-tele turns have been about two meters wide, probably less. I could ski down a five meters wide blue with b-tele.
The accuracy of the location of the axis is not crucial to this discussion, but it could be used to grasp the differences between A-tele and B-tele turns. I would like to show you the following videos to support my view.
A-tele short turn:
B-tele short turn:
It's clear that the body axis of the A-tele skier swings between left and right sides, with the width of the corridor being about 3 meters (10 feet) or more, which is the difference between the centers of right and left turns. On the other hand, the body axis of the B-tele skier appears to oscillate on a single fall line. Considering that the B-tele skier is skiing with 3-pin leather on rough surface, the turn control is very tight, and the width of the corridor is about 1 meter (3.2 feet) or less. The ski tracks of the following picture show that the corridor width of B-tele is controlled within almost the body width.
What gives the B-tele an advantage over the A-tele is the smallness of the turn radius, which provides a wider range of adjustable turn radius. Since the range of B-tele is wider than A-tele, the B-tele has superior controllability than A-tele.
Thinking of the Santa Fe technique as carving, it seems useful to have a look at carving in alpine. On that side, skiers seem to have thought a lot of ski mechanics.
In alpine / GS carving turns, unweighting means moving weight from one foot to the other most often. Different GS releasing techniques seems to be about releasing your old outer ski after a turn. Well there is a weighted release in GS, too, but for example GS early-release á la Ted Ligety means early weight transfer from old outer ski to new outer ski really.
Nothing from GS seems directly applicable to b-tele because you ski b-tele inner ski to inner ski, and GS outer ski to outer ski. Yet one thing to note is that you can alter your skis' turn radius by varying how much you pressure a ski (image above). That should be relevant to tele carving, but also applicable to long b-tele turns. Maybe using extreme forces is not b-tele by nature, but such bent-ski-release "jolts" seem to be a main mechanism of release in b-tele still.
Speaking of GS turns and tele, a White pass turn seems closest to tele. See above video. That is an extreme form of weighted release in slalom terms. Weighted release means weighted inner ski in GS technique.
Starting at 5:08 was the way I skied tele.
I learned this from a woman instructor at Santa Fe back about 30 years ago.
...
I am a b-tele beginner, and my narrowest b-tele turns have been about two meters wide, probably less. I could ski down a five meters wide blue with b-tele.
@tkarhu , I'm glad you're developing your B-tele skiing technique through practice. I'm a bit envious because we don't have enough snow for skiing in Japan, and the warm winter forecast doesn't look promising.
The Santa Fe techniques in the video appear to be a typical A-tele short turn, which may not be very helpful for learning B-tele. The skier in the video bends their skis by using downward movements of their body when squatting and centrifugal force during turns. Although the skier's vertical movements seem small, they may be adjusted to absorb the rebounding force from their skis, which is not part of their technique. Additionally, it appears that the skier focuses on quick changes of lead and rear skis simultaneously, without considering the alternating pressures in their boots while turning.
In B-tele, skiers bend their skis by extending their body, while A-tele skiers contract by squatting. A-tele skiers' short turns may be due to a large amount of ski bend created by the fast movement of their body, which is the same mechanism as in alpine skiing. In B-tele, skiers feel alternating pressure changes in their boots while turning, similar to walking. B-tele does not always require fast movement because spin motions come from the natural winding and unwinding of waist flexure.
Speaking of GS turns and tele, a White pass turn seems closest to tele. See above video. That is an extreme form of weighted release in slalom terms. Weighted release means weighted inner ski in GS technique.
Unfortunately, the video above may not be beneficial for learning B-tele either. The changes in weighting are not static, as seen in the video, but dynamic, and the lead ski must always have contact with the snow and curve to support the body.
The flowing river never stops and yet the water never stays the same.
This concept of the curving technique in alpine skiing demonstrated in the video, is similar to the swing movements of the B-tele technique. As explained in the video, the technique involves dynamically steering the lead ski in a way that controls the path more forward than sideways. The instructor in the video also notes that this technique is useful when skiing on powder.
B-tele skiers are able to move the lead ski more easily and efficiently than alpine skiers, thanks to the use of heel-free and low-cut boots.
The flowing river never stops and yet the water never stays the same.
B-tele skiers are able to move the lead ski more easily and efficiently than alpine skiers, thanks to the use of heel-free and low-cut boots.
I don't see how this can be true. I can crank turns pretty well on tely gear, but nothing like what I could do on alpine gear. It just has way more power and better instantaneous engagement with huge leverage advantages over any set up with a free heel. B-tely may have its place with light gear on low angle, but it's quite a stretch to compare that with Mikaela Shiffrin dominating a slalom course.
I think The Telehiro bump how to video above shows what I’m talking about. It show the lack of vertical movement which is the result of keeping both skis weighted throughout the turn. B tele is a two footed, mostly evenly weighted turn. It relies on being in a tight stance with your center of gravity being more over your rear ski than in A tele. If you can achieve these two things you can adapt B tele to a lot of different terrain and conditions. The only time B won’t work is when you need to heavily weight your skis, like in poor conditions or when you don’t have enough skill to control your speed in B tele.
While the term B tele is new to me, the technique isn’t.
