Telehiro and B-Tele Discussion

[Stephen]

There’s nothing wrong following instruction, but I would reserve that for techniques that are not so ambiguous and better understood.

At this point, I have little sense of ambiguity or lack of understanding.
Can I do this technique yet?
No.
But when the snow is available to work on it, I have a pretty clear understanding of the movements and dynamics of the technique.

Trying to understand exactly what he is doing is the same as trying to understand any other ski technique, whether it be classic xc, skate skiing, AT, Freestyle, Slalom, Ski jumping, etc.
Each of those has been studied in great depth for a long time, to try and understand and refine the technique for optimal results. A skier experienced in one of those domains seeking to understand another of those domains would have the same challenges we have in trying to understand this B-Tele thing.
It not a religion, it’s just something to be curious about.
[EDIT] Reinforced by something I read just today *

I wish I could see a way to present a 3D, moment by moment representation or model to show what he is doing and what the forces are on his skis, but that seems beyond the scope of what is available here.

I think the video posted by @Rodbelan does a good job of demonstrating the technique (not perfect, because it lacks the forces generated by skis interacting with snow, slope angle, etc.).
In it, one can see how his “back” foot is under him (and acts somewhat like the pin end of a compass) and his “front” foot arcs around that (somewhat) pinned back foot.
The back ski swivels, the front ski arcs around the swivel point.
I think since the front ski is traveling a longer distance, and is arcing, it has more pressure back, against it, vs the back ski, which I think has more pressure up, against it.

Also important in that video is what I’m calling “down-unweighting.”
His upper body remains quiet while he contracts his legs up, in the transition between turns.
The wooden inverted “V” under him highlights how he is unweighting his skis (even though Telehiro uses different terms than unweighting).

*
https://www.powder.com/gear-locker/welc ... le-dribble
“As Brad English wrote in his 1984 classic Total Telemarking: "above all, there is no final form in skiing - past, present, or future. It is instead an on going art, a process: open to new interpretation, yet fundamentally natural and enjoyable."

[Lhartley]

Some more...

To me this best illustrates the style being communicated, along with his video on the stairs and a few of his mogul videos. It's nice to see it stripped down. All the pages and pages of dialog turn it into such a gray area

[Stephen]

All the pages and pages of dialog turn it into such a gray area

Somewhat agree, but would it have been possible to shortcut to this, without wandering our way through the forest?
To me, it sometimes seems like the struggle to understand builds a framework that supports true understanding.
Put another way, it seems like Understanding is more a journey than a destination.
Not a criticism of you sentiment, just my .02¢.

[Lhartley]

No, I appreciate the discussion for sure, just saying I appreciate when it get can narrowed down for someone less experienced (in telemark) like myself. I can't help but think that the topic of all the discussions himself is responding to all the recent dialog, so of course it helps

[CIMA]

To be more exact, pushing and pulling, expanding and contracting, increase and decrease force, not weight. However, we often say ”weight”, when you should say ”force” in an elementary school physics lesson. Contracting your knees does not decrease your body weight. I wish losing weight would really be so easy!

More seriously, my point is that unweighting is a slightly vague and outdated term even in alpine skiing. Nowadays they use more the concept of releasing instead of unweighting, according to the site.

I understand that skiing terminology can be confusing, especially with the changes in gear and techniques. Perhaps we could use the terms "bend ski" and "unbend ski" to make it easier to understand.

However, note that intentional bending movements on skis are only done on the rear ski in B-tele skiing, which is a unique style and not seen in alpine or A-tele skiing. Also, it's important to be aware that when extending the body during B-tele skiing, the movement isn't limited to just the body's vertical axis. The extension also includes a horizontal component, which can be compared to the opening and closing of a flower bud.



This video stands for the concept of the "center of mass" in the TH's writings on B-tele.

Now you’re loosing me. If only bending the rear ski is really what it is, that’s not what I’m doing. I’m skiing on both skis, bending(or not) both skis and that’s what I’m seeing in his videos.

If “b” is a rear foot dominant technique and “a” tele is a front foot dominant technique then I must be doing “c” tele, a two footed balanced technique.

In rods video above I don’t see anything indicating that it is back foot dominant, I see a balanced two footed technique.

The bending-rea-ski movements are intentionally carried out as part of the techniques of B-tele. This does not mean that the lead ski is not bent. Due to the centrifugal force, the lead ski should be supported against it, and the bend of the ski would follow. However, this is a simple observation and does not contribute to the understanding of the skiers.

As long as the body movements are generated, the center of mass shifts always during skiing. To put it other way around, such unbalanced states are the sources of movements. For instance, when you stand on the legs with even weight and maintain that posture, you will not be able to move from that position. Similarly, it seems a little funny to me that many A-tele skiers are obsessed with equal weighting.

[CIMA]

No, I appreciate the discussion for sure, just saying I appreciate when it get can narrowed down for someone less experienced (in telemark) like myself. I can't help but think that the topic of all the discussions himself is responding to all the recent dialog, so of course it helps

As mentioned by @Stephen in the first post, most of the participants in this thread are beginners in B-tele and are trying to understand the true nature of the elephant. This thread serves as a journal for their learning process and is not an official textbook on B-tele techniques. It is important to note that the discussions are from the perspective of beginners and some of their views might differ from TH's thoughts as they are too natural for him to express. Nevertheless, this record of novice discussions can be useful for TH if he happens to find it.

In the near future, AI will be able to summarize and organize these clutters in mere milliseconds.

[CIMA]

After understanding the nuances of braking on both consolidated and powder snow along with the concept of CM, in addition watching instructional videos below and simulating the motions on the ground, most skiers will be able to prepare themselves for B-tele skiing. Once they have mastered the technique, they will be able to sense the differences between A-tele and B-tele skiing.



The video may not have been created for teaching mogul techniques, it demonstrates the push-pull movements of the legs accompanied by expansion-contraction of the body. You'll notice when the skis are bent and unbent when seen in slow-motion.
(BTW, TH's mogul techniques are jaw-dropping.)

[Sidney Dunkin]

Equally weighting your skis is just a starting point. If you don’t have the skill to equally weight them, how are you going to have the skill to fine tune how you vary the pressure on them. Skis don’t need to be equally weighted, but they do need enough weight on them to make them work. It all goes back to the basics of staying centered and being able adjust the weight on each ski as required or desired. If you can’t control how you pressure your skis you’re not going to master “b” tele, as I see it.

[Yoshinobu]

Better than a thousand days of diligent study is oneday with a great teacher.

[Lhartley]

No, I appreciate the discussion for sure, just saying I appreciate when it get can narrowed down for someone less experienced (in telemark) like myself. I can't help but think that the topic of all the discussions himself is responding to all the recent dialog, so of course it helps

As mentioned by @Stephen in the first post, most of the participants in this thread are beginners in B-tele and are trying to understand the true nature of the elephant. This thread serves as a journal for their learning process and is not an official textbook on B-tele techniques. It is important to note that the discussions are from the perspective of beginners and some of their views might differ from TH's thoughts as they are too natural for him to express. Nevertheless, this record of novice discussions can be useful for TH if he happens to find it.

In the near future, AI will be able to summarize and organize these clutters in mere milliseconds.

To be clear, I wasn't criticizing the dialogue here. Mostly just a comment on amount of discussion I guess. "If you say a word enough it starts to lose its meaning" kind of thing. It's a confusing topic since the definitions aren't clearly defined. Guess it would be just nice if there was chapter summaries or something. Idk. Carry on. It's interesting stuff and I love the style of skiing