Telehiro and B-Tele Discussion

[CIMA]

B-tele or nah?

Looks close.
If you stand taller, get relaxed and focus more on the expansion and contraction of your body (see the video), you'll get closer to the B-tele.

[tkarhu]

@CIMA In my understanding, expanding and contracting are directly related to weighting and unweighting. Weighting and unweighting are not always about moving weight from one limb to another. Extending a leg creates force against snow, and that is weighting. Contracting your legs decreases the force, and that is unweighting. So b-tele braking is weighting, and contraction is unweighting.

Sorry — I have been using the the terms Up and Down Unweighting incorrectly (opposite actual meaning). I went back and corrected my earlier misuse of the term, but unfortunately, once someone has quoted what I said, that does not update and remains incorrect.

So, I’m going to quote something I found on the internet:
http://www.effectiveskiing.com/Topic/Do ... nweighting

According to the site Stephen quotes, you first bend your skis, and load energy to the skis. And then you release the energy by releasing bent and edged skis. See video below.



The activities of bending skis and releasing edges are related to weighting and unweighting, and pushing and pulling. Telehiro illustates pushing and pulling on the below video.



Telehiro spends the first half of the video pushing and bending a ski with his arms. First he pushes a ski with his whole palm, and the ski bends quite a lot. Then he pushes the ski with his fingers, and it bends less. Later on he first contracts his legs, and then expands a leg by stomping and taking small steps slightly backwards. The leg movements increase and decrease ”weight” on your skis. The arm pushes apply changing forces to the ski.

To be more exact, pushing and pulling, expanding and contracting, increase and decrease force, not weight. However, we often say ”weight”, when you should say ”force” in an elementary school physics lesson. Contracting your knees does not decrease your body weight. I wish losing weight would really be so easy!

More seriously, my point is that unweighting is a slightly vague and outdated term even in alpine skiing. Nowadays they use more the concept of releasing instead of unweighting, according to the site.

You can release your edges in many ways. In b-tele, releasing is implicit in the technique. To stop falling on my butt, it was necessary for me to think through, how releasing works in b-tele. I guess it may happen in different ways there. But if you are not releasing your edges in a transition from a turn to another, the technique will not work. You do not have to think of it, but it should happen in one way or another. When practising without an instructor, learning the concepts of unweighting and releasing can be helpful.

By the way, in alpine (GS) skiing, up-unweighting seems to be considered even more outdated than the word unweighting. Reading that and about up-unweighting related health and safety issues here, it feels surprising that up-unweighting is still mainstream tele education in many countries.

Sorry — I have been using the the terms Up and Down Unweighting incorrectly (opposite actual meaning). I went back and corrected my earlier misuse of the term, but unfortunately, once someone has quoted what I said, that does not update and remains incorrect.

So, I’m going to quote something I found on the internet:
http://www.effectiveskiing.com/Topic/Do ... nweighting

Impulsing is yet another useful concept from the site that Stephen referred. Up-weighting and down-weighting are not really about weight, but about directions where we apply force. Applying force for a period of time is called an ”impulse”.

You can create an upward impulse also by keeping your body static, when the energy of bent skis is getting released against your foot soles. So when using the word ”up-unweighting” in that sense, you can up-unweight also without your trunk moving upwards. So Stephen’s choice of words may not be entirely wrong.

However, for practical purposes, it seems more easy to think of up-unweighting as creating an upwards impulse yourself, actively in the moment. There seems to be nothing outdated in the bent-ski-release up-unweighting by staying static, even though up-unweighting by upwards movement is considered not optimal nowadays. Often when people write "up-unweighting", they seem to mean up-unweighting by active movement. And that makes sense to me because using the other meaning makes things complicated. The two meanings are so different, why use same word?

Telehiro writes that a rotation will happen by itself, if you have extended your braking side earlier. In other words, the effects of braking a moment ago are part of contracting and releasing in b-tele. I guess that means you use the bent-ski-release upward forces in b-tele. Yet in my understanding, you do not unweight by active upwards movements in the technique.

[Stephen]

@tkarhu, I don’t know how you have time to both write and ski!
You and I are seeing this the same way — I think your analysis makes many great points.
And, I think the mental understanding is helpful for the on-the-snow learning process.

[CIMA]

To be more exact, pushing and pulling, expanding and contracting, increase and decrease force, not weight. However, we often say ”weight”, when you should say ”force” in an elementary school physics lesson. Contracting your knees does not decrease your body weight. I wish losing weight would really be so easy!

More seriously, my point is that unweighting is a slightly vague and outdated term even in alpine skiing. Nowadays they use more the concept of releasing instead of unweighting, according to the site.

I understand that skiing terminology can be confusing, especially with the changes in gear and techniques. Perhaps we could use the terms "bend ski" and "unbend ski" to make it easier to understand.

However, note that intentional bending movements on skis are only done on the rear ski in B-tele skiing, which is a unique style and not seen in alpine or A-tele skiing. Also, it's important to be aware that when extending the body during B-tele skiing, the movement isn't limited to just the body's vertical axis. The extension also includes a horizontal component, which can be compared to the opening and closing of a flower bud.



This video stands for the concept of the "center of mass" in the TH's writings on B-tele.

[Rodbelan]

Some more...

[Sidney Dunkin]

To be more exact, pushing and pulling, expanding and contracting, increase and decrease force, not weight. However, we often say ”weight”, when you should say ”force” in an elementary school physics lesson. Contracting your knees does not decrease your body weight. I wish losing weight would really be so easy!

More seriously, my point is that unweighting is a slightly vague and outdated term even in alpine skiing. Nowadays they use more the concept of releasing instead of unweighting, according to the site.

I understand that skiing terminology can be confusing, especially with the changes in gear and techniques. Perhaps we could use the terms "bend ski" and "unbend ski" to make it easier to understand.

However, note that intentional bending movements on skis are only done on the rear ski in B-tele skiing, which is a unique style and not seen in alpine or A-tele skiing. Also, it's important to be aware that when extending the body during B-tele skiing, the movement isn't limited to just the body's vertical axis. The extension also includes a horizontal component, which can be compared to the opening and closing of a flower bud.



This video stands for the concept of the "center of mass" in the TH's writings on B-tele.

Now you’re loosing me. If only bending the rear ski is really what it is, that’s not what I’m doing. I’m skiing on both skis, bending(or not) both skis and that’s what I’m seeing in his videos.

If “b” is a rear foot dominant technique and “a” tele is a front foot dominant technique then I must be doing “c” tele, a two footed balanced technique.

In rods video above I don’t see anything indicating that it is back foot dominant, I see a balanced two footed technique.

[tkarhu]

@Sidney Dunkin Good point! An outer ski applies force, too. The above knife-and-foam video illustrates this.

The force applied by the outer ski is horizontal. For sure the ski is engaging edges effectively. It seems essential that the inner edge of his foot is touching ground.

When trying out b-tele, I could feel pressure on my outer leg foot sole, too, not only on my inner foot. I guess your senses feel force, not weight.

When compared to an inner ski, there seems to be less weight on the outer ski, but significant force. The types of forces applied to each ski seem quite different.

In alpine skiing theory, engaging edges seems more essential than bending skis. In one movement, you probably most often both engage the edge of a ski and bend the ski.

By the way, @CIMA also wrote earlier that your balance is on both legs in B-tele (citations below). Skiing C tele is fine, too.

I’m skiing on both skis, bending(or not) both skis and that’s what I’m seeing in his videos. If “b” is a rear foot dominant technique and “a” tele is a front foot dominant technique then I must be doing“c” tele, a two footed balanced technique.

Because centrifugal force becomes bigger as the speed of skis increases, you'll need to support your body with both legs so as not to derail your imaginary line of turn.

[Sidney Dunkin]

@Sidney Dunkin Good point! An outer ski applies force, too. The above knife-and-foam video illustrates this.

The force applied by the outer ski is horizontal. For sure the ski is engaging edges effectively. It seems essential that the inner edge of his foot is touching ground.

When trying out b-tele, I could feel pressure on my outer leg foot sole, too, not only on my inner foot. I guess your senses feel force, not weight.

When compared to an inner ski, there seems to be less weight on the outer ski, but significant force. The types of forces applied to each ski seem quite different.

In alpine skiing theory, engaging edges seems more essential than bending skis. In one movement, you probably most often both engage the edge of a ski and bend the ski.

By the way, @CIMA also wrote earlier that your balance is on both legs in B-tele (citations below). Skiing C tele is fine, too.

[quote="Sidney Dunkin" post_id=65445 time=<chrome_annotation data-index="0" data-data="da1b8f4e-74d8-465c-888f-e5ce7289242d" data-annotation="1702557145" data-type="PHONE_NUMBER" role="link" style="border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">1702557145</chrome_annotation> user_id=4331]
I’m skiing on both skis, bending(or not) both skis and that’s what I’m seeing in his videos. If “b” is a rear foot dominant technique and “a” tele is a front foot dominant technique then I must be doing“c” tele, a two footed balanced technique.

[quote=CIMA post_id=65105 time=<chrome_annotation data-index="1" data-data="a27bbee0-3f4f-4332-9cb7-30c0b1f45d80" data-annotation="1702110177" data-type="PHONE_NUMBER" role="link" style="border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">1702110177</chrome_annotation> user_id=419]
Because centrifugal force becomes bigger as the speed of skis increases, you'll need to support your body with both legs so as not to derail your imaginary line of turn.
[/quote]
[/quote]

My advice is not to overthink it. Work on staying centered with both skies weighted while doing the push/ pull thing to work on staying stable. For better carving work on the early lead change. To put it simply you are starting a new turn by transitioning while still going in the direction of the old turn. I also advise doing this on hills that won’t require speed control.

[tkarhu]

Some more...

Short b-turn

Start with your knees pointing 45° away from heading direction, but keep looking ahead and your chest facing heading. Place weight on the outer edge of your approach side leg ball-of-foot, with the ankle bent and heel down. Extend your approach side of body, and your approach side knee. *) Before you initiate a turn, straighten your legs for a moment.

Push forward the approach side of your pelvis, sweep that side ski in a round motion, with the inner edge of the ski pushing ground, while tilting your elongated body side to the other. **) Continue the same sweep until your knees are pointing 45° away from heading direction, while still looking ahead and your chest facing forward. End the sweep in the initial posture with contracted ankles.

Repeat the same on your other side.

*) “Side of body” means the area between your hip and ribs here.

**) For a passing moment, you will be in a b-tele neutral stance. In the neutral stance, your ankles and knees are bent, you have even weight on both your feet, and your chest is facing heading direction. This “returning to zero” stance helps you to float over fall line because your skis are flat against snow. The symmetrical movement of tilting sides helps to time the neutral stance to fall line, when you are heading that direction.

When sweeping, if your inner ski is cutting into snow, you can get your edges right by contracting your outer ski side of body momentarily, when initiating a sweep, by pressing the inner edge of your outer foot against snow, and by pressing that leg knee inwards, during the sweep. It also helps to have a tall initial pose, and well bent ankles in your low stance, because the pressure on your foot soles gets less, when you have more space to fall. Also keep your knees parallel to each other in order to have parallel skis. Focusing on your pelvis (instead of legs) helps to align the knees and skis because a pelvis rotation pivots as much your inner and outer skis.

My way of working is to try to follow instructions, and experiment, when following them. When that does not work, think, troubleshoot and experiment again until things start to work.

Telehiro’s today’s video (rodbelan thanks for posting!) should be an accurate presentation of what to do. Doing the video exercise felt similar to the other exercise above, which I have ended up with earlier.

However, one difference is that telehiro is going straight down, whereas in the other exercise you do traverses. Another difference is that the other exercise has breaks built-in between turns, when braking. Well, actually maybe you would not traverse, if you could skip the breaks.

[Sidney Dunkin]

There’s nothing wrong following instruction, but I would reserve that for techniques that are not so ambiguous and better understood.