Telehiro and B-Tele Discussion

[CIMA]

I believe that to be the case. I think there was something in the thread about stomping the rear foot (apologies if I have that wrong) in the B-technique that sounds like a way of slowing. That would be unique to B-tely. It's an interesting discussion for sure. But the actual mechanisms of bleeding off speed seem to be the same to me once you get to the ski/snow interface. But everything that happens there is directed by what people do from the ankles up.

That could be longhand for the response "hmmm, I'm not sure". When it comes to lighter gear, I don't know what I don't know. I alpine skied for almost 40 years before I took up telemark and my strategies for controlling speed haven't changed in the almost 20 years since I took communion as a "genuflector".

The A-tele and B-tele skiing techniques have different braking mechanisms.

In A-tele, the downward moment of the upper body is the main factor that helps to brake. For example, you need to quickly squat down to bend the skis downward to reduce speed significantly. Both skis will scrub the surface to brake. Once you reach the telemark position, you'll wait for the speed to decrease to a comfortable level and maintain the position. Since the bindings are heel-free and the telemark position is static, the skis carve very little and skid more than alpine skis. The braking action begins after the crossover, and the center of turn is located outside farther than that of B-tele, which means that the centrifugal force tends to be greater than in B-tele, so the braking time is longer.

In B-tele, the speed of the extension movement of the body is the main factor that helps to brake. The braking action starts right before the crossover due to the spinning motion of the body. The rear ski is mainly responsible for braking, and the lead ski carves the surface due to its swinging action and the boot, whose heel has contact with the binding. Since the center of the turn is located close to the body, the centrifugal force is smaller. All these benefits contribute to quick and efficient B-tele turns. Since the skier's stance is high and the energy loss is smaller than in A-tele, you can ski longer and stay in comfort. The B-tele turn is dynamic, with no stop motion included.

Please note that these are theoretical concepts, and actual results may vary based on the skill level of the skiers.

[CIMA]

#3.
I think the "Walking Down Stairs" demonstration video is not a completely accurate representation of his technique.
By this I mean:
His movements do represent the technique, however;
I don't think the foot weighting is accurate.
In the video, he doesn't have the reality of "In the air" unweighting that he has on the snow.
To walk down stairs, there is no way one can have weight on both feet during the transition from one step to another, as he does when "ski-stepping" down the slope.

Your analysis is correct. I don't ski like that in a precise sence.
The video shows the general motions of the B-tele turn emphasizing the spinning motion.

#4.
I saw reference to a video on another site, and while it relates to Alpine technique, seems to be a direct parallel to the “Brake before turn” of B-Tele.
(That is, not using the turn to control speed.)
It’s Segment #1 of this 5 segment video:

You seem to be correct.
Since the spin motion is fast, it's hard to recognize the braking prior to the crossover.

[CIMA]

#3.
I think the "Walking Down Stairs" demonstration video is not a completely accurate representation of his technique.
By this I mean:
His movements do represent the technique, however;
I don't think the foot weighting is accurate.
In the video, he doesn't have the reality of "In the air" unweighting that he has on the snow.
To walk down stairs, there is no way one can have weight on both feet during the transition from one step to another, as he does when "ski-stepping" down the slope.

I thought I remembered seeing something similar about pivoting in the PSIA telemark task list, and just took a look, sure enough:



Telemark pivot slips (level 2). Compare and contrast to Telehiro's demonstration video of side-slipping and pivot slipping posted earlier.

There is a video of TH doing basically the same manuever (pivoting sideslip down the fall line).
I think the difference is that many of the moves he demonstrates are building blocks to get to the final result (what is being called B-Tele).
So while TH does the pivot sideslip, I think he would later add what I’m calling a back foot check, or braking, before rotation into the next turn.
Hope that makes sense.

In the above video, since the patroller is progressing directly down the fall line, it seems like the only reason to pivot would be to give his legs a break by occasionally switching the loads on his muscles?

Also, in the video above, interesting to note how much the back half of the ski with the heel raise is flapping around (up and down, on the snow).
I’m wondering what causes this and think it might be active bindings removing pressure on the back of the ski when the heel is raised, and maybe also, soft, low camber skis?

The purpose of TH's video goes beyond skidding.
Pay close attention to movements that are extending and contracting as they are crucial.

[CIMA]

He’s doing quick turns down the fall line with a back foot “check” just before each turn.
I *think* this back foot check creates energy that he uses to up-unweight, which keeps his upper body very quiet.

Actually, up-unweighting a pivot seems to be another technique that telehiro teaches. He calls it "kururin turn". See video below.



He recommends the kururin turn for skiing steeps. Does the technique look different from the side slipping pivot to you, too?

It seems @Stephen used the term similarly to the "pull" that TH used in his writings on B-tele. If so, his comment is probably correct.
The Check Hop turns in the video is very difficult, and I've never seen the students who can do it well.

[tkarhu]

He’s doing quick turns down the fall line with a back foot “check” just before each turn.
I *think* this back foot check creates energy that he uses to up-unweight, which keeps his upper body very quiet.

It seems @Stephen used the term similarly to the "pull" that TH used in his writings on B-tele. If so, his comment is probably correct.

To me, up-unweighting and very quiet upper body just sounded contradicting in Stephen's earlier post (quote above). However, I think it has been @Stephen himself, who has introduced the terms up-unweighting and down-unweighting in older threads. So hopefully he can explain, what this all means

How I see it, up-unweighting means decreasing the pressure on your foot soles (and skis!) by rising upwards from a neutral stance. The neutral stance could mean a basic standing posture here, sometimes with bent knees. Thus, A-tele short turns and the kururin turn seem to use up-unweighting.

In practice, up-unweighting means jumping or extending your legs. Your upper body moves upwards in both cases. Then you are "weightless", when you return to a neutral state.

By contrast, down-unweighting means decreasing the foot sole pressure without going upwards from a neutral stance. You can do that by contracting your ankle, knee and/or hip joints. B-tele seems to use down-unweighting.

In down-unweighting your upper body does not move necessarily, when angulating. Thus, Stephen's expression very quiet upper body fits down-unweighting better than up-unweighting in my opinion.

EDIT: Handwritten texts in telehiro’s intro say: expansion (push); contraction (pull). Concerning legs, pushing is down, against ground; pulling up, towards trunk.



By the way, I think the b-tele extensions of your braking leg and mountain side of body have a double function. On one hand, they press the outer edge of your mountain side ski against snow. As a secondary function, the extensions also create space for contraction, for a very short free fall and down-unweighting.

You can try out the free fall by doing the first drill of the above video. Pay attention to your foot soles, when contracting your ankles.

[Rodbelan]

I think if you look at this one, you'll have a better grasp at what he is into — I had a hard time remembering where this vid was... it is an instructional made by TeleHiro many years ago... Watch specially around 4:21 «Step-up».

[Stephen]

He’s doing quick turns down the fall line with a back foot “check” just before each turn.
I *think* this back foot check creates energy that he uses to up-unweight, which keeps his upper body very quiet.

It seems @Stephen used the term similarly to the "pull" that TH used in his writings on B-tele. If so, his comment is probably correct.

To me, up-unweighting and very quiet upper body just sound contradicting in Stephen's earlier post (quote above). However, I think it has been @Stephen himself, who has introduced the terms up-unweighting and down-unweighting in older threads. So hopefully he can explain, what this all means

Sorry — I have been using the the terms Up and Down Unweighting incorrectly (opposite actual meaning). I went back and corrected my earlier misuse of the term, but unfortunately, once someone has quoted what I said, that does not update and remains incorrect.

So, I’m going to quote something I found on the internet:
http://www.effectiveskiing.com/Topic/Do ... nweighting
“Up-unweighting refers to "pushing" into the skis at the end of the turn, to throw the body "up" and take the weight/pressure off the skis that way, while "down-unweighting" refers to an unweighting where the body is allowed to "fall" and the feet are relaxed/retracted instead”

Personally, my experience of Down-Unweighting is not a lowering of the body, but a relaxing or slight contraction of the legs to unweight the skis. The body has more mass than the legs, so will move relatively little, keeping the upper body “quiet,” vs pushing the entire weight of the body up to then unweight the legs.

[Stephen]

I think if you look at this one, you'll have a better grasp at what he is into — I had a hard time remembering where this vid was... it is an instructional made by TeleHiro many years ago... Watch specially around 4:21 «Step-up».

I love watching this guy ski. He has such joy, and oneness with the snow!
So smooth.

Some people are saying his stuff if only for firm snow, but watching him ski powder shows otherwise.
I also think that sometimes people focus on one particular move he is doing, without seeing that that move is only a stepping stone to a more refined technique, not an end, in itself.

Not saying his is the one true way.
Everyone who is good has developed a style and technique that suits them.

[Montana St Alum]

[/quote]

Sorry — I have been using the the terms Up and Down Unweighting incorrectly (opposite actual meaning). I went back and corrected my earlier misuse of the term, but unfortunately, once someone has quoted what I said, that does not update and remains incorrect.

So, I’m going to quote something I found on the internet:
http://www.effectiveskiing.com/Topic/Do ... nweighting
“Up-unweighting refers to "pushing" into the skis at the end of the turn, to throw the body "up" and take the weight/pressure off the skis that way, while "down-unweighting" refers to an unweighting where the body is allowed to "fall" and the feet are relaxed/retracted instead”

Personally, my experience of Down-Unweighting is not a lowering of the body, but a relaxing or slight contraction of the legs to unweight the skis. The body has more mass than the legs, so will move relatively little, keeping the upper body “quiet,” vs pushing the entire weight of the body up to then unweight the legs.
[/quote]

I "meant what you knew". 9 out of 5 telemarkers are dyslexic.

I think of "unweighting" in terms of the objective. Generally, for me, unweighting is just whatever it takes to get pressure off of the engaged edge so that I can more easily roll to the other edge and reengage it for the next turn.

That could be up or down. When I'm skiing my best and smoothest, it's just a release of pressure on the inside edge of the outside ski, done by decreasing the angle at which that edge is engaged. That release allows the body to fall or roll into the inside edge of the left ski for the next turn and there is almost no up/down motion involved. That is the smoothest way for me to do it on heavier gear.


For clarity, my definitions - my telemark pronouns, if you will, are:
If you are pointing right of the fall line, in a left turn, your outside ski is uphill until you transition past the fall line and then it's downhill.
While turning, the inside ski is always the inside ski - sometimes it's uphill (or mountain side?) and sometimes it's downhill (the valley side?) depending on which side of the fall line you happen to be on at any given moment.

So, in a left turn, with the inside edge of the right ski driving the turn, by just releasing the pressure on that inside edge of the right ski, your body will roll off to the right and the inside edge of the left ski will roll with your body to become engaged. It's during this weight transition that I also bring the trailing (left) ski forward for the next turn.

Sometimes I up-unweight, sometimes down and sometimes it's a roll. Sometimes it's the upward vector from being in the bumps.
Again, this is on heavier gear, but I tend to believe the physics are very similar.

[Sidney Dunkin]

Down unweighting is quicker so it’s a good thing to be able to do in bumps or variable terrain. It can prevent a fall by being the quickest way to get out of one turn and into the next. Hopefully when you need it it will come natural as a way to stay upright. Maybe this should be called “emergency unweighting” but it is a starting point.