This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips / Telemark Francais Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web since 1998. East, West, North, South, Canada, US or Europe, Backcountry or not.
This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips / Telemark Francais Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web since 1998. East, West, North, South, Canada, US or Europe, Backcountry or not.
This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web. We have fun here, come on in and be a part of it.
Other than being on low angle, or deep draggy snow, everyone uses turns (in addition to changing direction) for speed control. Anytime you make a turn that is tighter than the turn radius of the ski, you're skidding, and that will scrub speed.
Right, but there is a difference between loosing speed purely as a result of turning, and wanting to loose speed.
Serious question: How often do ski racers want to loose speed? I’m thinking, not very often.
I think what might be different about B-Tele is that he is not using the turn to control speed, he is checking his speed right before turn initiation (if I understand correctly).
When I'm carving, the speed control comes from continuing the turn such that the downhill vector becomes smaller, i.e. across the hill because without skidding, I'll accelerate to the point at least where drag = the acceleration from slope angle. That's generally too fast for my comfort level. I don't see much value in sideslipping down the mountain. Are these just "skills exercises" for learning?
The way I understand it, his technique is particularly applicable with lighter gear (whereas, you are skiing heavy gear, where his technique is not as relevent).
And, the technique he uses doesn’t require him to get “speed control [by] continuing the turn.”
He’s doing quick turns down the fall line with a back foot “check” just before each turn.
I *think* this back foot check creates energy that he uses to up-unweight, which keeps his upper body very quiet.
If I’m understanding his style, I think my last statement is a key part of his technique.
@Stephen
If the "check" action means "breaking," your understanding seems correct.
The flowing river never stops and yet the water never stays the same.
Yeah, maybe it's a lighter gear sort of thing. There are really only two ways that a skier can scrub speed. Turn till you're across or up the hill or just turn. You can maintain speed or scrub it, by virtue of the degree to which you skid. Everyone does that. If I want to stay fast, I would just skid less or not turn as tight.
It seems like this technique suffers a double whammy. First, defining it seems challenging, so it's a bit of a Rorschach Test rather than a technique. And second, it replaces easily executed distributions of effort, balance, etc. and replaces those with something that just doesn't make much sense. If it made sense, whammy number one wouldn't be a factor.
But, it has been so long since I was on light gear that there may be a lot to this I don't see. I'm just saying the emperor's close are missing. I'm not saying he's ugly.
Do you mean the speed control technique of A-tele is similar to that of alpine ones?
I'm thinking of posting a hypothesis stating that the mechanism of speed control may show a weakness of A-tele compared with those of alpine and B-tele.
The flowing river never stops and yet the water never stays the same.
Yeah, maybe it's a lighter gear sort of thing. There are really only two ways that a skier can scrub speed. Turn till you're across or up the hill or just turn. You can maintain speed or scrub it, by virtue of the degree to which you skid. Everyone does that. If I want to stay fast, I would just skid less or not turn as tight.
It seems like this technique suffers a double whammy. First, defining it seems challenging, so it's a bit of a Rorschach Test rather than a technique. And second, it replaces easily executed distributions of effort, balance, etc. and replaces those with something that just doesn't make much sense. If it made sense, whammy number one wouldn't be a factor.
But, it has been so long since I was on light gear that there may be a lot to this I don't see. I'm just saying the emperor's close are missing. I'm not saying he's ugly.
Do you mean the speed control technique of A-tele is similar to that of alpine ones?
I'm thinking of posting a hypothesis stating that the mechanism of speed control may show a weakness of A-tele compared with those of alpine and B-tele.
I believe that to be the case. I think there was something in the thread about stomping the rear foot (apologies if I have that wrong) in the B-technique that sounds like a way of slowing. That would be unique to B-tely. It's an interesting discussion for sure. But the actual mechanisms of bleeding off speed seem to be the same to me once you get to the ski/snow interface. But everything that happens there is directed by what people do from the ankles up.
That could be longhand for the response "hmmm, I'm not sure". When it comes to lighter gear, I don't know what I don't know. I alpine skied for almost 40 years before I took up telemark and my strategies for controlling speed haven't changed in the almost 20 years since I took communion as a "genuflector".
When I last taught skiing in a PSIA certified ski school in 2002, the Stem Christie was most certainly part of the progession. Quite frankly if you have a better way of progressing into parallel turns by all means you should do it. However the stem turn is not outdated.
Well, that is what I am saying too. It is a useful turn, and a logical progression from wedge turns (I like to think of it as a half-wedge), and students are missing out if it is not being taught anymore. But how does it make sense to "progress" from stem turns to parallel turns, when turn initiation is the exact opposite between the two (weight the new inside ski in a stem turn, unweight it in a parallel turn)? Stem turns are not a prerequisite for parallel turns. Which is what some French ski schools advocated in the 1960s (so this change in teaching methodology has nothing to do with parabolic skis as many people claim).
3. The instructions I wrote to myself based on the above videos and indoors drills.
After braking, shorten the elongated body joints and return the mountain side ski. Accelerate straight towards fall line, both feet at the same time. Your mountain side ski will return instantly because your speed is up, you have stretched your leg and pushed yout mountain side ski to a twisting direction, and shortening your legs lifts the ski away from snow. If there has been a twist, it will rotate instantly. When you have bent the rear part of the mountain side ski, it will automatically rotate quickly, when you return it.
The moment you shrink, your ski is in the air. A ski spins best in the air. For the part often thought of as a “lead change”, the appropriate word is “spin" in b-tele, or “returning to zero”.
Then, you will extend what you have contracted again but on the other side, apply the brakes, return to zero, and repeat this process to lower your altitude. "I am just going straight downhill, spinning and braking repeatedly." This is it.
When changing to a medium or long turn, all you have to do is to slow down the spinning movement.
So far, my limited understanding of B-Tele is that:
- The last turn is just ending;
- The back ski is heavily weighted (stomping, shown in one of TH’s vids), and the front ski is lightly weighted;
- If there is braking involved, it happens here?;
- The back ski is made flatter to the snow and starts a rotation, and the front ski is lightly ruddered or arced across the snow;
- The skis approach the fall line and start to become equal (front to back);
- The legs are relaxed or retracted (stop resisting gravity / Down-unweighting / pulling legs up, quite upper body);
- Weight is placed on inside ski (new back ski);
- Outside ski is knifed or arced through the turn radius;
- Return to start of list and repeat.
Start with your knees pointing 45° away from heading direction, but keep looking ahead and your chest facing heading. Place weight on the outer edge of your approach side leg ball-of-foot, with the ankle bent and heel down. Extend your approach side of body, and your approach side knee. *) Before you initiate a turn, straighten your legs for a moment.
Push forward the approach side of your pelvis, sweep that side ski in a round motion, with the inner edge of the ski pushing ground, while tilting your elongated body side to the other. **) Continue the same sweep until your knees are pointing 45° away from heading direction, while still looking ahead and your chest facing forward. End the sweep in the initial posture with contracted ankles.
Repeat the same on your other side.
*) “Side of body” means the area between your hip and ribs here.
**) For a passing moment, you will be in a b-tele neutral stance. In the neutral stance, your ankles and knees are bent, you have even weight on both your feet, and your chest is facing heading direction. This “returning to zero” stance helps you to float over fall line because your skis are flat against snow. The symmetrical movement of tilting sides helps to time the neutral stance to fall line, when you are heading that direction.
When sweeping, if your inner ski is cutting into snow, you can get your edges right by contracting your outer ski side of body momentarily, when initiating a sweep, by pressing the inner edge of your outer foot against snow, and by pressing that leg knee inwards, during the sweep. It also helps to have a tall initial pose, and well bent ankles in your low stance, because the pressure on your foot soles gets less, when you have more space to fall. Also keep your knees parallel to each other in order to have parallel skis. Focusing on your pelvis (instead of legs) helps to align the knees and skis because a pelvis rotation pivots as much your inner and outer skis.
In the first part of the video, he demonstrates parallel skidding, both straight and diagonally, which will be applicable as it is when escaping from a steep, icy area of snow. I often used those techniques on my backcountry tours. Also, you can use those practices to build your senses of control speed during the last half of each turn.
After you've mastered the parallel skidding, you may move on to add an alpine or telemark turn. Those techniques will also be helpful when skiing downhill on a steep, shallow area such as a crique and couloir. The senses you have built in those practices, of course, will apply to B-tele turns you have already seen on YouTube.
In his classic tele book, Parker teaches to first stop after each turn (drill #5). You can do the same, when practicing b-tele, if you learn to pivot a short b-turn first. See above video.
When you have found success with the indoors drills and pivots, linking short b-turns could be a next step (video below).
After getting short b-turns somewhat work, doing long turns with the same technique was doable on green gradients. "When changing to a medium or long turn, all you have to do is to slow down the spinning movement."
The above telehiro video starts with long turns. He has chosen that video as a B-tele reference video. So his b-tele seems to encase many lengths of b-turns.
Last edited by tkarhu on Mon Dec 11, 2023 1:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
He’s doing quick turns down the fall line with a back foot “check” just before each turn.
I *think* this back foot check creates energy that he uses to up Down-unweight, which keeps his upper body very quiet.
If I’m understanding his style, I think my last statement is a key part of his technique.
@Stephen If the "check" action means "breaking," your understanding seems correct.
Yes, “check” and “brake”, same thing.
#2. @tkarhu quoted this, but I can’t find from where he quoted it.
However, if it's from Telehiro, it seems like a concise summary from the man, himself.
After braking, shorten the elongated body joints and return the mountain side ski. Accelerate straight towards fall line, both feet at the same time. Your mountain side ski will return instantly because your speed is up, you have stretched your leg and pushed yout mountain side ski to a twisting direction, and shortening your legs lifts the ski away from snow. If there has been a twist, it will rotate instantly. When you have bent the rear part of the mountain side ski, it will automatically rotate quickly, when you return it.
The moment you shrink, your ski is in the air. A ski spins best in the air. For the part often thought of as a “lead change”, the appropriate word is “spin" in b-tele, or “returning to zero”.
Then, you will extend what you have contracted again but on the other side, apply the brakes, return to zero, and repeat this process to lower your altitude. "I am just going straight downhill, spinning and braking repeatedly." This is it.
When changing to a medium or long turn, all you have to do is to slow down the spinning movement.
#3.
I think the "Walking Down Stairs" demonstration video is not a completely accurate representation of his technique.
By this I mean:
His movements do represent the technique, however;
I don't think the foot weighting is accurate.
In the video, he doesn't have the reality of "In the air" unweighting that he has on the snow.
To walk down stairs, there is no way one can have weight on both feet during the transition from one step to another, as he does when "ski-stepping" down the slope.
#4.
I saw reference to a video on another site, and while it relates to Alpine technique, seems to be a direct parallel to the “Brake before turn” of B-Tele.
(That is, not using the turn to control speed.)
It’s Segment #1 of this 5 segment video:
Last edited by Stephen on Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#3.
I think the "Walking Down Stairs" demonstration video is not a completely accurate representation of his technique.
By this I mean:
His movements do represent the technique, however;
I don't think the foot weighting is accurate.
In the video, he doesn't have the reality of "In the air" unweighting that he has on the snow.
To walk down stairs, there is no way one can have weight on both feet during the transition from one step to another, as he does when "ski-stepping" down the slope.
I thought I remembered seeing something similar about pivoting in the PSIA telemark task list, and just took a look, sure enough:
Telemark pivot slips (level 2). Compare and contrast to Telehiro's demonstration video of side-slipping and pivot slipping posted earlier.
@tkarhu quoted this, but I can’t find from where he quoted it.
However, if it's from Telehiro, it seems like a concise summary from the man, himself.
After braking, shorten the elongated body joints and return the mountain side ski. Accelerate straight towards fall line, both feet at the same time. Your mountain side ski will return instantly because your speed is up, you have stretched your leg and pushed yout mountain side ski to a twisting direction, and shortening your legs lifts the ski away from snow. If there has been a twist, it will rotate instantly. When you have bent the rear part of the mountain side ski, it will automatically rotate quickly, when you return it.
The moment you shrink, your ski is in the air. A ski spins best in the air. For the part often thought of as a “lead change”, the appropriate word is “spin" in b-tele, or “returning to zero”.
Then, you will extend what you have contracted again but on the other side, apply the brakes, return to zero, and repeat this process to lower your altitude. "I am just going straight downhill, spinning and braking repeatedly." This is it.
When changing to a medium or long turn, all you have to do is to slow down the spinning movement.
Yes, the text is edited from telehiro’s b-tele intro. I recognize some of my own voice in the overly long sentence, but I tried to stick to telehiro’s expressions.
EDIT: i can hear my voice in the words ”shortening your legs lifts the ski away from snow”. I guess telehiro used an expression like ”it is in air” there. The rest of the paragraph sounds like telehiro to me.
There is also another version of the intro with texts both in English and Japanese. Its English texts are somewhat different from the English-only version. Some of the citation may be from the two language page.
Further, there might be something from his YT video descriptions, too. I don’t remember.
#3.
I think the "Walking Down Stairs" demonstration video is not a completely accurate representation of his technique.
By this I mean:
His movements do represent the technique, however;
I don't think the foot weighting is accurate.
In the video, he doesn't have the reality of "In the air" unweighting that he has on the snow.
To walk down stairs, there is no way one can have weight on both feet during the transition from one step to another, as he does when "ski-stepping" down the slope.
I thought I remembered seeing something similar about pivoting in the PSIA telemark task list, and just took a look, sure enough:
Telemark pivot slips (level 2). Compare and contrast to Telehiro's demonstration video of side-slipping and pivot slipping posted earlier.
There is a video of TH doing basically the same manuever (pivoting sideslip down the fall line).
I think the difference is that many of the moves he demonstrates are building blocks to get to the final result (what is being called B-Tele).
So while TH does the pivot sideslip, I think he would later add what I’m calling a back foot check, or braking, before rotation into the next turn.
Hope that makes sense.
In the above video, since the patroller is progressing directly down the fall line, it seems like the only reason to pivot would be to give his legs a break by occasionally switching the loads on his muscles?
Also, in the video above, interesting to note how much the back half of the ski with the heel raise is flapping around (up and down, on the snow).
I’m wondering what causes this and think it might be active bindings removing pressure on the back of the ski when the heel is raised, and maybe also, soft, low camber skis?
He’s doing quick turns down the fall line with a back foot “check” just before each turn.
I *think* this back foot check creates energy that he uses to up-unweight, which keeps his upper body very quiet.
Actually, up-unweighting a pivot seems to be another technique that telehiro teaches. He calls it "kururin turn". See video below.
He recommends the kururin turn for skiing steeps. Does the technique look different from the side slipping pivot to you, too?
Last edited by tkarhu on Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
