This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips / Telemark Francais Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web since 1998. East, West, North, South, Canada, US or Europe, Backcountry or not.
This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips / Telemark Francais Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web since 1998. East, West, North, South, Canada, US or Europe, Backcountry or not.
This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web. We have fun here, come on in and be a part of it.
By the way, I met a fellow tele skier on NTN this week. He asked me:
— Have you considered making tele turns with those skis?
I thought I had been skiing tele all the time
I was looking at gear on the facebook telemark gear exchange group and someone had offered "telemark boots." The responses said "those are duckbill" and "not NTN." I guess if you aren't on the latest gear you aren't telemarking.
I guess these issues are cultural… Sad to hear of such attitudes. In my case it was a different thing, I guess my skiing just looked so different from what you need to do on his NTN gear, that he did not recogize my style as telemark. He had also owned a pair of Åsnes skinnies, which he had used for one-week pulk trips in the tundra and fjells of arctic Lapland.
I also chatted with a 80 years old guy who had skied alpine since 1950’s. He was going to travel to the Italian alps with some competitive alpine skiers, but was also so interested in my skiing that he waited at the bottom of the hill for one lap to see it Not the most interesting show in my opinion.
So I was way off, stem involves other ski. So what do you call these where Stenmark lifts the inside ski stepping in order to carve the other ski?
I don't think you were way off, but the thread has wandered off topic. I think what that's called is, Stenmark doing everything he can to stay upright and, in the course, while pushing himself 100%. Many times in competition, racers will need to get up a little "higher" out of a turn to get a shot at the next turn. It is, as pointed out, the opposite of a stem christy as it's led by the tip of the ski. But, much like a stem, it involves lifting and repositioning a ski.
So, I remember this day. At about time 1:00, I felt like I was doing stem christies on the entire section, but you can really see it at time 1:14 or so. It was steep with deep chop so it exacerbated the stem, I think.
At time 1:40 or so, on the middle few turns, I was just shuffling, not my usual "get up on edge" turn. It felt completely different during those 3 turns or so. It's not very steep here, so speed control wasn't a factor. It felt and looks like it was pivoting, but the skis were tracking, not pivoting at the axis of the boot, but had a "walking or running down the hill" feel. (185cm JJ's at 116 underfoot and T2 Eco's as I recall, so heavy gear.)
Then, at time 2:40 or so, I'm sideslipping to control speed in a pretty steep section, so maybe that sideslipping exercise isn't a waste of time.
At 3:14 or so, it looks a little like that "walking down the stairs and twisting" stuff. Maybe? Maybe not?
IDK, maybe we go through a spectrum of A-B-A-B as needed rather than an "either/or" sort of thing. I'm thinking I use a stem christy an awful lot, though.
Is anything in here B-tely, or just a variation of A-tely?
Oh, hey, that's my avatar.
Last edited by Montana St Alum on Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
Folks, I haven't had a chance to respond to all the critics lately, but I'll get to it when things calm down.
In the meantime, as a B-tele practitioner, I want to jump in and clear up some things for you.
One person made the comment that the axis of rotation in Telehiro’s turns is often inside his body (looking down from above). I would say that it is not usually possible to make carved turns when this is true (given that the designed turn radius of the skis is going to put the axis of the carved turn many meters to the inside of the turn, relative to the skier’s body).
This would mean that Telehiro’s B-Tele turns are skidded turns (observation, not judgement), and that much of the art of his turns is in how he is sliding his skis across the snow.
That person's comment sounds very familiar to me.
I wonder if you have considered the location of the axis for the mid-spinal line, as it's different.
In my understanding, the axis of turn is located at the foot of the lead leg, similar to the lead leg of a figure skater about to enter an upright spin. While skiers cannot fix the center of spin due to the frictionless nature of snow and the inertia of the body, which results in making the centers shift outside, they make turns as if they are pivoting on the lead leg, as shown in the following videos.
Since the legs are part of the body, it would be proper to say that "the turn axis is inside the body."
Discussing the locations of the axis with mathematical strictness may be absurd, as it is with the discussion on "equal weighting" of A-tele stance, since equal weighting stands just for skiers' feeling and not for a mathematical fact proved by lab experiments.
The accuracy of the location of the axis is not crucial to this discussion, but it could be used to grasp the differences between A-tele and B-tele turns. I would like to show you the following videos to support my view.
A-tele short turn:
B-tele short turn:
It's clear that the body axis of the A-tele skier swings between left and right sides, with the width of the corridor being about 3 meters (10 feet) or more, which is the difference between the centers of right and left turns. On the other hand, the body axis of the B-tele skier appears to oscillate on a single fall line. Considering that the B-tele skier is skiing with 3-pin leather on rough surface, the turn control is very tight, and the width of the corridor is about 1 meter (3.2 feet) or less. The ski tracks of the following picture show that the corridor width of B-tele is controlled within almost the body width.
What gives the B-tele an advantage over the A-tele is the smallness of the turn radius, which provides a wider range of adjustable turn radius. Since the range of B-tele is wider than A-tele, the B-tele has superior controllability than A-tele.
You got me there @CIMA i watched the “A” video and said yes that’s how I ski. I watched the “B” video and recognized the technique. I cannot argue that the “B” technique skier can ski a more narrow corridor than I can.
I’m still cleaning up my “A” Tele technique, but I’ll do a little “B” drilling this season. It will be an addition to the toolbox
Damn, how about now? Sorry.
It could be the music is copyrighted and I can't figure out how to edit that out.
Shows up now.
Probably not worth the wait! But it shows some stem christy turns for sure.
Looks like a good variety of turns to my untrained eye. Why did it look like there was a lot of skidding at about the 2:30 mark or thereabouts (red outfit instead of green)?
What it looks to me that Stenmark does is lift the inside ski slightly, placing it backward (as telehiro does in a shuffle, without the same visible lifting) but changing its direction or orientation down across the fall line to assist in turn initiation.
I probably do not know any better, but I enjoy observing and thinking through together, too.
I have watched alpine skiing only around 1990, when I skied alpine myself. But it looks like the first ~100 seconds are grand slalom (GS), and from then on slalom.
What I know from shopping rock skis, GS skis are insane stiff. And on Olympic level even stiffer. So Stenmark may need to put all his weight on one ski in order to make it bend enough for a tight turn. I do not know. But I do such outer ski weighting on my double camber Gammes, which need more than half of my weight, but less than my weight to bend flat (=they have passed a paper test). So in some old school tele techniques you would use such outer ski weighting to initiate a turn. But I guess you cannot change a carving radius by extra pressure, when you have got a ski carve.
Regarding the GS part, I see Stenmark lifting his inner ski, but not really pivoting it. I have lifted my inner ski this week many times in order to avoid it from cutting into snow. Well, maybe Stenmark lifts his outer ski for that reason partly, too. Another reason why I have lifted my inner ski has been to pivot it in air. But later this week I also lifted it without rotating because already that helped with both above issues: having the inner ski not cut into snow, and carving the outer ski.
In b-turns, you pivot both your skis by a circular movement of your outside hip IME. That movement initiates the outer ski sweep, too. You do not pivot single skis there. Pivoting your outer hip makes your whole trunk pivot. To make both skis pivot, you need to keep your knees pointing forward, when pivoting your outer hip.
What looks most like short b-turns to me, are the last gates of the slalom part (link to 2:36 above). I guess he is doing similar hip movements that you do in short b-turns. And he needs to have his outer ski on its inner edge, I believe. But if you look at CIMA’s a-tele and b-tele references, Stenmark looks more like the a-tele skier. For example, it looks like Stenmark is up-unweighting.
Last edited by tkarhu on Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:19 am, edited 3 times in total.
@Montana St Alum i would call that “A” Tele well done. Your transitions take advantage of unweighting.
If it is “B” Tele, I’ve been doing it for quite some time.
Not the most interesting show in my opinion.
