Telehiro and B-Tele Discussion

[Capercaillie]

Watch the inside ski.

Stenmark lifts the inside ski to bend and carve the outside ski. As Stephen pointed out, that is literally the opposite of stemming (weighting the new inside ski to pivot a flat new outside ski). A good example of why Internet discussions of technique seem like people are talking about completely different things - sometimes they are.

And BTW the only "obsolete" thing about Stenmark's technique is that today people are encouraged to unweight the inside ski without visibly lifting it off the snow, and to pull that inside ski in sooner at the start of the turn, to make the skis appear more parallel... which is how some racers, like Jean-Claude Killy, skied in the 1960s:



So is b-tele stemming? Telehiro used to teach stemming as a learning progression for telemark 15 years ago:



Today his teaching method is very different:

Whether or not you call the next movement ``lead cahnge'' or not, in my intuitive sense it is ``returning to zero.'' It's in the air, so accelerate straight towards the fall line. Then, we will extend the contracted amount again, apply the brakes, return to zero, and repeat this process to lower the altitude. "I'm just going straight downhill, spinning and braking repeatedly." This is it. Thinking is not turn arc based. This is the reason why I divided it into B instead of A.

https://www.otr.pxc.jp/~mahoroba/english.htm

Both skis are pivoted simulatenously. There is no stemming going on.

[tkarhu]

Well good points here! However, I also disagree with some.

Weird, I guess we are now calling stemmed telemark turns "B-tele".

To put it short: in a b-turn, you pivot your skis to turn them. This week, if I did stem or step, it was not a b-turn in my opinion.

I was learning a b-turn three days this week (on skis). I got it somewhat working yesterday, at least the basics. Yet I have not much worked on braking because I did b-tele on blues only.

today people are encouraged to unweight the inside ski without visibly lifting it off the snow, and to pull that inside ski in sooner at the start of the turn

Currently I need to weight my sweeping ski in order to prevent my inside ski outer edge from cutting into snow. Like @Capercaillie writes above on alpine technique issues.

On the Ingemar Stenmark video, his skiing looks more like jump turns than stem turns to me because he keeps his skis fairly parallel. Doesn't stemming mean turning your skis to a v shape?

I would say it's a low angle thing, rather than a light gear thing. As things get steeper you will have to resort to more conventional A turns at some point.

In a b-turn, when it gets steeper, the most challenging thing is to get your skis pivot. And, pivot turns are used for skiing steeps mostly. Even telehiro says he developed the b-turn for skiing steeps initially. So, I guess b-tele should work, when skiing steeps.

Yet already on a black, step turning felt easier. But I guess that was because I hadn't skied pivot turns before.

I think incorporating a pivot turn to tele might be telehiro's original contribution. Has someone seen a pivoted tele turn elsewhere earlier?

[tkarhu]

By the way, nice contributions from Lowangle Al on the other forum (quotes below).

A or B tele, it's pretty mysterious and I think we all have different ideas on what's what. I'm not one to get mired in details, but I have a big picture of what I think it is. To me it's a smoother, more quiet way to ski, that's easier on your body too. I think it relies on having equal weight on each ski and keeping each ski weighted throughout the turn. The tighter your stance(a boot length or less), the easier it will be. In my opinion you can use it for carved or pivot turns.

I’m still not sure what b tele is, but after almost 40 years I’ve got my own thing going on. My journey to “b” started about 15 years ago when I came up with the concept I called, “skiing my age”. It was a new to me style that minimized unweighting and It cured the problem I had with sore knees.

That evolved to turns that I describe with this quote that I posted last year on another forum. “On single camber you can quietly ride your edges through not only the turn but the transitions too. Both skis evenly weighted and edged, from edge change to edge change, gliding silently, barely disturbing a thing”.

Since then I started doing similar turns but added a little unweighting and smeared them instead of carving them. Now after watching his videos I’m going to add those evenly weighted pivot turns.

When I’m skiing laps on low angle terrain I like to experiment making as many different kinds of turns that I can think up. I’m happy to have some new ideas picked up from his videos.

Even though a b-turn is based on pivoting, it was also easy to change to longer, "carved" turns using the b-tele instructions, when practicing this week.

Also, like Lowangle al writes, my stance was not longer than a boot. Sometimes it was half a boot long.

By the way, I met a fellow tele skier on NTN this week. He asked me:
— Have you considered making tele turns with those skis?
I thought I had been skiing tele all the time On the other hand, we had lots of same ideas on downhill technique, too.

[tkarhu]

In this thread, when I refer to A-tele, I'm talking about a style of telemark skiing that uses modern equipment like skis with a center width of 90mm or more, high-cut plastic boots, and cable or NTN bindings.
[...]
On the other hand, B-tele techniques are more Nordic in nature and feel similar to cross-country skiing. The main focus for B-tele skiers is adjusting their turn radius and spin speed according to changes in terrain and snow conditions. Vertical movements during lead changes are not visible and are not part of the technique. B-tele turns tend to be shorter, which makes them more versatile for controlling risks.

Thanks @CIMA for clarifying the meanings. Would it make sense to have a dedicated word also for the characteristic short turn, that you often see on telehiro videos?

@Capercaillie wrote in another thread that telehiro had thought of the name "Ishikida turn". You can see "Ishikida" in skier names on a 15 years old video.

To put it short: in a b-turn, you pivot your skis to turn them. This week, if I did stem or step, it was not a b-turn in my opinion.

I intentionally used the word "b-turn" here. NOT "b-tele".

If I did step my mountain side ski a little this week, when practicing, I think I was still skiing b-tele in the sense CIMA defines it. Yet I had not followed the instructions how to do the Ishikida turn, or the short b-turn.

Even Telehiro does not ski the characteristic short b-tele all the time himself. Yet the same movement patterns are a versatile source for many kinds of turns. You can easily turn a short b-turn into a long / carved turn or a pivot turn / braquage.

[CIMA]

Folks, I haven't had a chance to respond to all the critics lately, but I'll get to it when things calm down.
In the meantime, as a B-tele practitioner, I want to jump in and clear up some things for you.

One person made the comment that the axis of rotation in Telehiro’s turns is often inside his body (looking down from above). I would say that it is not usually possible to make carved turns when this is true (given that the designed turn radius of the skis is going to put the axis of the carved turn many meters to the inside of the turn, relative to the skier’s body).
This would mean that Telehiro’s B-Tele turns are skidded turns (observation, not judgement), and that much of the art of his turns is in how he is sliding his skis across the snow.

That person's comment sounds very familiar to me.
I wonder if you have considered the location of the axis for the mid-spinal line, as it's different.

In my understanding, the axis of turn is located at the foot of the lead leg, similar to the lead leg of a figure skater about to enter an upright spin. While skiers cannot fix the center of spin due to the frictionless nature of snow and the inertia of the body, which results in making the centers shift outside, they make turns as if they are pivoting on the lead leg, as shown in the following videos.





Since the legs are part of the body, it would be proper to say that "the turn axis is inside the body."

Discussing the locations of the axis with mathematical strictness may be absurd, as it is with the discussion on "equal weighting" of A-tele stance, since equal weighting stands just for skiers' feeling and not for a mathematical fact proved by lab experiments.

The accuracy of the location of the axis is not crucial to this discussion, but it could be used to grasp the differences between A-tele and B-tele turns. I would like to show you the following videos to support my view.

A-tele short turn:


B-tele short turn:


It's clear that the body axis of the A-tele skier swings between left and right sides, with the width of the corridor being about 3 meters (10 feet) or more, which is the difference between the centers of right and left turns. On the other hand, the body axis of the B-tele skier appears to oscillate on a single fall line. Considering that the B-tele skier is skiing with 3-pin leather on rough surface, the turn control is very tight, and the width of the corridor is about 1 meter (3.2 feet) or less. The ski tracks of the following picture show that the corridor width of B-tele is controlled within almost the body width.

Source

What gives the B-tele an advantage over the A-tele is the smallness of the turn radius, which provides a wider range of adjustable turn radius. Since the range of B-tele is wider than A-tele, the B-tele has superior controllability than A-tele.

[CIMA]

Maybe following answer by @CIMA gives answers also to the questions, why to sweep?

You can control the angle at which the lead ski tips [tilts] by adjusting the width of your feet. The wider your feet are, the more the ski will tip. You can test this on a flat surface. As the slope angle increases, your feet tend to widen, causing the sweeping motion of the lead ski to become larger.

One thing that happens is that taking a ski away from your body puts the ski on edge. Could you maybe replace the sweep, or reinforce it, by pressing the inner edge of your mountain side ski, when pivoting?

On the video, telehiro is sweeping with the inner edge of his foot. You cannot see his upper body, but it should be angulating.

It is probably not possible to replace the functions between the inside and outside foot.
The purposes of sweeping movements are as follows.

1. To guide the direction to the next turn
2. To adjust the radius and speed of turn
3. To prevent the outside ski from skidding downward

Because centrifugal force becomes bigger as the speed of skis increases, you'll need to support your body with both legs so as not to derail your imaginary line of turn.

[tkarhu]

It is probably not possible to replace the functions between the inside and outside foot.

In the citation, I was referring to outside ski edging. Did we understand that the same way? Or do you mean that a sweeping ski should be unweighted?

Because centrifugal force becomes bigger as the speed of skis increases, you'll need to support your body with both legs so as not to derail your imaginary line of turn.

EDIT: Answer came above I guess. There is weight also on the sweeping ski. Thus, if the sweeping ski is on its wrong edge, its sidecut works against you.

The term "mountain side" can be confusing, when talking about sweeping, because a foot and ski move from your mountain side to valley side during a sweep. Same applies to "lead" probably.

[CIMA]

Thank you Cima, I understand more where you are coming from. I am not skiing above tree line. In bad visibility I instinctively ski in trees where visibility is typically much better. I also tend to point the skis straighter down the hill in powder, and in foot or so of snow I may ski in leather, beyond that it’s T-4’s and mid 80 cm underfoot.
I guess I’m coming from a very different perspective. I do salute your athleticism and prowess. I gave my perspective, so I will sit back and enjoy reading the thread.

@fisheater
I rarely ski above the tree line due to avalanche risks. I'm not fixated on B-tele short turns, but mastering it certainly boosts my confidence in navigating through trees. B-tele pairs well with lightweight telemark gear, so watching B-tele videos can be beneficial at times.

[mca80]

By the way, I met a fellow tele skier on NTN this week. He asked me:
— Have you considered making tele turns with those skis?
I thought I had been skiing tele all the time

I was looking at gear on the facebook telemark gear exchange group and someone had offered "telemark boots." The responses said "those are duckbill" and "not NTN." I guess if you aren't on the latest gear you aren't telemarking.

[mca80]

So I was way off, stem involves other ski. So what do you call these where Stenmark lifts the inside ski stepping in order to carve the other ski?