Telehiro and B-Tele Discussion

[Stephen]

@Montana St Alum, I think dialogue, no matter how uninformed it may be, is at least entertaining.


But seriously, also useful.

[tkarhu]

He’s doing quick turns down the fall line with a back foot “check” just before each turn.
I *think* this back foot check creates energy that he uses to up-unweight, which keeps his upper body very quiet.
If I’m understanding his style, I think my last statement is a key part of his technique.

I am not sure what you mean by "check", but this is how I see it. And I am not sure if he up-unweights b-turns. Yet I think I agree.

In a b-tele pivot, you need to tilt your mountain side ski from its outer edge to its inner edge fast. Otherwise it may catch snow. To enable that, you down-unweight. And to create space for a down-unweight, it helps to expand your mountain side leg first.

This seems of importance with NNN-BC. When skidding a tele stance, you keep your heel down in order to have your boot sole grooves sit in the binding. Such a tele stance is not optimal for starting a down-unweight because your mountain side ankle is bent.

Today I will try out with rising to my mountain side ball of foot, when starting the ski slash / pelvis sweep. Let's see how that works.

Another challenge I have bumped into when trying to learn a b-turn, is that you need to time your pivot well, so that your skis are crossing the fall line in a neutral state, not edging. Having tried out different movements indoors, quickly changing from extending the mountain side of body (between hip and ribs) to extending the other side may give a neutral stance in fall line, when doing this while sweeping. When skidding, I do the body side extension for angulation and edging already.

Because the movement of tilting sides is symmetrical, your skis should be in a neutral state at fall line, if you are going straight down. When tilting body sides, also body weight moves from one side of a foot to the other side simultaneously.

[CIMA]

I am not a great skier, but my sense of turning skis is that, in maybe almost all cases, the skis float across the fall line (this would not be true for, say, step turns, snowplow, maybe some others).
If this is true, then maybe the differences in technique would be the dynamics of what happens before and after the fall line, and maybe where the skis are, relative to each other, approaching and crossing the fall line?

So far, my limited understanding of B-Tele is that:
- The last turn is just ending;
- The back ski is heavily weighted (stomping, shown in one of TH’s vids), and the front ski is lightly weighted;
- If there is braking involved, it happens here?;
- The back ski is made flatter to the snow and starts a rotation, and the front ski is lightly ruddered or arced across the snow;
- The skis approach the fall line and start to become equal (front to back);
- The legs are relaxed or retracted (stop resisting gravity / Down-unweighting / pulling legs up, quite upper body);
- Weight is placed on inside ski (new back ski);
- Outside ski is knifed or arced through the turn radius;
- Return to start of list and repeat.

I could have easily left things out of even stated something incorrectly and welcome comments.

Your analysis is accurate, and I can vividly imagine the sequence of B-tele turns. Nice job, @Stephen !

However, the list mainly focuses on the output side of skiers and does not mention the input side. In this context, the input side refers to the information that skiers receive from their senses about the external environment, such as changes in view, the pressure felt in boots, muscle excitations, frictional noise of skis, sounds and touches of wind, and senses of body inclination.

Ultimately, all humans repeat the following sequence only:

1. Receive information from sensors,
2. Process it in the brain, and
3. Output reactions via muscles.

Regardless of the type of sport, the amount of input information and processing performance distinguishes pros from amateurs. Copying pros' output motions without considering the input information won't yield the desired results for amateurs. This is what I have learned while practicing telemark skiing.

The following Telehiro's video, subtitled "To and From," demonstrates how he adapts his skiing style to different types of terrain and snow conditions.



Viewers are recommended to pay attention not only to his motions but also to imagine how he feels about the changes in his environment.

One of B-tele's peculiar advantages is that skiers can use their lead skis as sensors by actively steering them and detecting changes in snow conditions earlier than A-tele or alpine skiers.

[CIMA]

In my previous post, I mentioned that B-tele skiers tend to make small turns. However, this doesn't mean that B-tele is limited to short turns only. B-tele skiers can also make long turns, but this is a more advanced technique that I will explain in future posts.

In Telehiro's skiing videos, you may have noticed that he mostly performs short turns. But have you ever wondered why B-tele skiers prefer short turns? In my another post, I explained that short turns are a practical and safer way to ski in the backcountry. However, for me, short turns in B-tele skiing are not only practical but also fun. The rhythmic movements feel like dancing, especially when using lightweight gear like NNN-BC. Therefore, my preferred style of B-tele is also short turns.

The short turn technique in B-tele skiing is a useful skill to have for those who enjoy powder skiing. It allows skiers to stay afloat and maneuver better than A-tele skiers using lighter gear. In my experience, I have even been on ski tours with alpine skiers who have modern fat rocker skis while I used NNN-BC gear, and I had no problems skiing downhill with them on various thicknesses of powder.

[Montana St Alum]

@Montana St Alum, I think dialogue, no matter how uninformed it may be, is at least entertaining.

Hah. I may have to confiscate this phrase as my motto. The conversation is heavy in enthusiasm, regardless, and that is refreshing.

[Montana St Alum]

[/quote]

Regardless of the type of sport, the amount of input information and processing performance distinguishes pros from amateurs. Copying pros' output motions without considering the input information won't yield the desired results for amateurs. This is what I have learned while practicing telemark skiing.
[/quote]

I'd forgotten what this was called:

"Proprioception is a coordinated neurologic and physiologic response aided by specialized nerves known as proprioceptors. These are the sensory receptors located on the nerve endings of the inner ear, muscles, skin, joints, tendons, and other tissues. They relay information about our body's spatial position and movements to the brain."

It's a critical aspect of what we do. We all do this. Since August, I have had significant vision loss (which thankfully has stabilized) but now this sensory feedback and using skis as "curb feelers" has become much more important for my skiing!

[bbense]

Weird, I guess we are now calling stemmed telemark turns "B-tele". The fully carved turn is a relatively recent development in skiing, at least for mere mortals. Shaped skis and powerful boots have made carved turns possible for the average skier, even the average telemarker. But you don't have to go that far back ( okay 80's... ) to a time when even the World Cup skiers would use a slight stem to initiate the turn. (Google A-Frame skiing).

If you have long relatively straight skis and softish boots, you pretty much have to stem the back ski to initiate a turn (i.e. make the ski bend). The other choice is to use the two skis in a single arc ( think of the skis as two tangents to a circle). These kinds of turns are a joy to make, but really only suited to soft snow and really wide turns.

"Stem, stem like hell.."

[Montana St Alum]

Weird, I guess we are now calling stemmed telemark turns "B-tele". The fully carved turn is a relatively recent development in skiing, at least for mere mortals. Shaped skis and powerful boots have made carved turns possible for the average skier, even the average telemarker. But you don't have to go that far back ( okay 80's... ) to a time when even the World Cup skiers would use a slight stem to initiate the turn. (Google A-Frame skiing).

If you have long relatively straight skis and softish boots, you pretty much have to stem the back ski to initiate a turn (i.e. make the ski bend). The other choice is to use the two skis in a single arc ( think of the skis as two tangents to a circle). These kinds of turns are a joy to make, but really only suited to soft snow and really wide turns.

"Stem, stem like hell.."

I don't agree that the average telemark skier can carve a turn. I've seen one or two (they had US Ski Team jackets, here in Park City) do it, but it's pretty rare to see a telemarker in a pure carve. You can self-check. At the end of a turn, look back. If you don't have two pencil thin lines, the turn wasn't carved.

I do agree with the rest, though. A stem initiation can be useful skiing the bumps, particularly if the stem occurs at the junction of the finished turn into the new turn direction. If, for example, you end a right turn with a slight skid out of the outside (in this case left) ski, as you initiate into the right turn, the left may have a 10-20 degree "head start" in that direction. It's not noticeable that the skis aren't exactly parallel, but it can dramatically speed the changes in direction, while the "check turn" aspect of the skidded ski can be used to further control speed without getting too far off the fall line. It's just another tool in the box.

[bbense]

I don't agree that the average telemark skier can carve a turn. I've seen one or two (they had US Ski Team jackets, here in Park City) do it, but it's pretty rare to see a telemarker in a pure carve. You can self-check. At the end of a turn, look back. If you don't have two pencil thin lines, the turn wasn't carved.

Well, by that standard there aren't that many alpine skiers that can carve a turn. I guess I'm trying to differentiate between just skidding the tails slightly vs an intentional stem. My impression is that stemmed turns aren't being taught anymore. People go from snowplow to a skidded initiation without the intermediate step of the Stem Christie. Makes sense given modern ski shapes, but not knowing a deliberate stem christie makes skiing "old school" straight skis really tough.

[Capercaillie]

But you don't have to go that far back ( okay 80's... ) to a time when even the World Cup skiers would use a slight stem to initiate the turn.

That is an urban legend that constantly gets repeated, but is not true.

What were ski instructors writing on the topic in the 1980s?

Lito Tejada-Flores, Breakthrough On Skis (1986):

Our modern skis really do bend into a curve underfoot when we weight them. This curve is called reverse camber, and it contributes enormously to the modern turn… Hasn't this always been possible? Didn't Jean-Claude Killy carve his turns with reverse-cambered skis to a triple Olympic victory back in 1968? Indeed he did. But the average skier of that period couldn't carve. On earlier skis, such reverse-camber bending was possible only at racing speeds (25, 30 mph and up), and even then only when the skier really stomped on his outside ski.

Ok, what about the 1970s?

Denise McCluggage, The Centered Skier (1977):

By far the most common excess practiced on today's hills is one still widely taught - the up-and-down, rise-and-fall that sandwiches each turn. Traverse-rise-sink; traverse-rise-sink. It is a pleasant enough rhythm, and displeasing only to an eye not yet spoiled by the fine stillness at the core of the carved turn. The up and down move is unnecessary for the unweighting of the modern ski and… it limits control. The up breaks up the steady pressure of the skis against the snow, and instead of the skis tracking around the arc of the turn as if on rails, they skid a wide wake in the snow… Skidding is to deny the design of the modern ski the full flower of its art. The side camber of the ski is carefully calculated to cause it to carve an arc - if the skier will just allow it to happen. The skidded turn is perfectly suitable on simple terrain where precision is unimportant, but if accuracy is a factor, or precise control desirable, the up-and-down movement becomes not only superfluous, but contradictory.

But surely no one had ever heard of carving in the 1960s?

Georges Joubert, Teach Yourself To Ski (English translation published in 1970):

The skis are no longer used for sideslipping but for cutting an almost unsideslipped curve with the steel edges. Carved turns require good quality skis. The use of carving by the best racers has only become common in the last dozen years [since 1958]. Pleasure skiers who know how to carve effectively in order to hold better on icy slopes or on hard snow, in slalom and in giant slalom, are rare.