Very unhappy with NTN and looking for new (old-style) kit

[firnundferitg]

Not sure if I#m writing this because I want some gear advice or just because I feel I need some sympathy and want to make sure I'm not the only telemarker out there who doesn't feel quite right with NTN

I've freed my heel over 15 years ago and never regretted it. For most of this time I didn't ski super often so I was happy just using the same old gear I started with for 10 years or so: second-hand (or foot) fairly soft Scarpa plastic boots (prob an old T2 model), third-hand K2 Work Stinx skis a bit too long for me and also a bit heavy for touring (esp. compared to current standards), some old cable binding, no idea what it was. But the age was starting to show, especially on the shoes.

So a few years ago I decided to bite the bulltet and get a brand new set. I let the guy at the shop talk me into what he said was better "performance" stuff: super light NTN binding, Scarpa TX Pro, light Blackcrows touring (ova freebird) skis. What really sold me on this was the prospect of lighter gear (exept for the shoes of course) and easier pivot for uphill, since I've been hoping to do more touring and less piste skiing. I should say here: I've always done a bit of everything, touring, piste, off-piste, pretty much any snow condition but I don't go often enough to justify two separate sets.

I am a very relaxed skier, not agressive or very interested in speed, I just want to enjoy my turns (that's part of what I like about telemark). Also, I weigh about 53 kg, so the amount of pressure I can put on any ski or shoe is limited. First day I took out my new kit I thought I didn't know how to telemark. Kept falling over. Hated the feeling of the high, stiff boots and not being able to really feel the ski under the duckbill. But I thought I just needed to get used to the new setup and break in the shoes a bit. I've been skiing on "walk" mode with those TX pro boots for three years now because otherwise they are still too stiff. Still very unhappy, not enjoying telemark with this setup, esp the rigid boots and the NTN system.

So I decided to go back to the good old 75 mm duckbill. I need to decide if it makes more sense to buy a completely new set or just the boots and bindings (I think the skis are fine, but it's hard for me to tell with these shoes - also, not sure if I can mount other bindings on them, I've read somewhere that some Blackcrows support telemark bindings). Any thoughts about this? Better to change the whole kit or single pieces?

In any event I need to choose boots and bindings. I was thinking of the Voile Switchback, which would be great for touring and also wouldn't break the bank (unlike some 22 designs bindings). In terms of the shoes I'm torn between the Scarpa T2, which seems quite versatile, and the T4 (having gone all the way to 4 buckles and hated it, now I long for maximum comfort I guess). Aside from the fact that the T4 in my size only seems to be available at a single online store in Europe, what are your recommendations / what's your experience of the Voile Switchback + Scarpa combination?

And lastly: some commiseration on the NTN debacle anyone?

[Montana St Alum]

So a few years ago I decided to bite the bulltet and get a brand new set. I let the guy at the shop talk me into what he said was better "performance" stuff: super light NTN binding, Scarpa TX Pro, light Blackcrows touring (ova freebird) skis.
And lastly: some commiseration on the NTN debacle anyone?

Sorry. Okay, that was the sympathy part!
For future reference as I learned in the Navy) if you want to find sympathy, it's in the dictionary between "shit" and "syphilis".
Anyway, you're not obligated to like NTN or keep it, but you might be able to adapt to it and enjoy it.

What make/model NTN did you buy, and given your weight, I'm guessing you are size 26 or less and therefore on the "small" size of NTN.
This is important, as the leverage on the small size is different. Also NTN's can ski radically different, depending on make/model. The Freeride (Rottefella) has a radically different feel compared to the Meidjo.

I transitioned from the Vice (22 D) size large with T2 Ecos in a 26.5 to the Rottefella Freeride. The first 5 or 6 days on them, I thought I'd had a stroke that destroyed all of the knee dropping connections in my brain. So, add empathy to sympathy. Neither will help you, but here's a tip that might.

On more neutral set ups, it is very easy to get the rear heel up without actually putting pressure on the shin of that back foot. Essentially you can slide a foot back to drop the knee. On an active binding such as the Freeride, it is much more difficult to drop that rear knee unless you aggressively press your shin against the cuff of the boot.

Think in terms of sliding the front ski forward to pressure the rear cuff, pushing DOWN on that cuff Vs. sliding a foot back to "lift:" that heel. Being in walk mode just makes matters worse, as pressuring the cuff - effectively! - is more difficult to do with the loss of stiffness.

A binding such as the Meidjo can be adjusted to be much more neutral and so that becomes less of an issue. I haven't skied the TTS system but would imagine that could be very neutral as well.

http://www.wasatchski.com/tts.htm

If you can utilize the technique of pressuring the cuff, you MAY grow to like it (and save some money). Otherwise, going back to 75mm just might be your best bet. If you are currently on a 22 Designs NTN it may be that you could go to a 75mm version from 22D, as the hole patterns are the same, I believe.

Good luck either way.

Edit: The Tx series have the ability to adjust the forward lean angle. I have always set them to one notch more upright. It's more comfortable for me, and makes for a more upright stance in general. It may not make any difference to you though.

[jtb]

I agree with @Montana St Alum. Personally I think the implementations of NTN mostly went the wrong direction for telemark (big, heavy, stiff). It's possible to get it to feel like 75mm only with more lateral stability, but not easy. Meidjo binding with soft springs and 3 buckle boots are a good start. But the currently available boots are overkill for most people, so you either have to find used boots, mod your boots, or wait for the new 2024 model.

I definitely sympathize with spending a bunch of money to "upgrade" to a rig you are not happy with. I think it's possible for you to get to something you are comfortable with, but it might be easier to get there by going back to 75mm. The first question is which binding you have -- that will give us an idea of what you're working with.

[spopepro]

I am also in the camp that believes NTN was a dead end bad path for tele. Extra complicated and extra compromised for questionable benefits. It seems of the people I talk to something like half of them ski their NTN boots in walk mode because the stiffness and angle are bad. I had hopes that the new scarpa boot would be better but early reports are that scarpa is doubling down, even adding a spoiler to add more forward angle.

For sure--I'd personally not reinvest in any NTN right now. Next-gen tele bindings are in a state of flux right now with the new boot, some new tele tech bindings and I don't think it's going to be sorted in the next year or two. Most of the people I've talked to think the tele tech setups ski more like 75mm, but do require some good geometry.

I mostly ski T2Ecos and X2 Switchbacks. It's a very good, if heavy, combo. Other than the weight, no reason not to recommend it. I'd not suggest the T4... I personally don't think it adds much advantage over the T2 except for low angle touring.

I've not had any issues mounting tele bindings (especially 75mm) on paulownia wood skis being meticulous and careful (these are often the "not for tele" skis, whether it be blackcrows or voile). But I'm also a very "light" skier--I run my springs on their lowest possible tension, I never go knee to ski, and I really try to ride the boards rather than wrench them around. If it was me, I'd remount the blackcrows, but there are people out there who have not had great outcomes, so caveat emptor.

[JohnSKepler]

Sure liking my 3-pin Rottefella Supertelemark and Garmont Excursion boots!

[phoenix]

I've stayed with 75mm so far (decades), and don't want or need anything stiffer for tele. I even modified my old 4 buckle T1's to a 3 buckle years ago, and the flex is much smoother, which is my preference. I've skied T2's, with cables, also, and done fine on those. the T4 is the first Scarpa I've tried in mybe 25 years or so that didn't feel right (on my shin, with any forward lean), so I went with very baggy fitting Excursions a few years back as a softer touring boot.

First got my Switchbacks last year, end of season sale so didn't get to ski them much, but I was pleased to find they have a smooth, progressive moderate flex... which I think you'll like. They feel like my old 7tm powers, or BD 03's.

I'm not familiar with the Black Crows, but I did a quick search and it looks like the Freebirds are around 102mm waist? Because if whatever ski you end up with is around 90mm or over, I'd be concerned with the ability of the T4 to handle the ski when conditions get a little difficult. My old T2's toured and skied pretty well. Tried the T2X when they came out, but I never liked the flex, and sold 'em. I haven't tried the newer T2 Eco's, but it's what I'd recommend category wise for an all mountain dimension ski. But I'd want to try 'em on first to get a sense of the flex (I'd trust the fit, personally). A fair amount of the older T2's are out there used, if you look. First Trax in Montgomery, VT, had a pretty full size run of T4's last spring, probably still do, if you go that route.

I hesitate to suggest much about the skis without knowing the specs on your Black Crows, or what sort of conditions you'll be skiing. As far as remounting them, it should be no problem at all structurally, if you end up wanting to.

And to note, I'm also a lightweight; 5'6" and around 125lbs.

[spopepro]

Quick primer on blackcrows: freebird is the designation given to their light touring layup and is applied across different skis. OP has the ova which is mid 80s underfoot, pretty flexy for a modern light ski, and has a healthy bit of rocker.

[lemon]

I was really nervous to switch. I needed new boots so I took a chance and got tx pros and rottefella freedoms. I feel over too alot on the first couple days. I got the green power box for them which is the soft one and I was able to get used to the flex. I moved up to the blue power box now and love it. But that's all frontside. For backcountry ntn is tough. I have been on 75mm for backcountry still but am going to try the transit this year with f3, f1 and f1 race boots.

[fisheater]

I ski a mid-80’s Asnes Tindan 86, with a T-4 and 3 pin Hardwire. It’s a poplar/carbon core ski, so a little more beef than paulowania.
Two guys got banned for their love of T-4’s and Vectors. Well they did really like that combo, I am pretty confident that’s not why they got banned. Just saying, a T-4 is capable mid-80’s underfoot for sure, and a couple of guys liked them at mid-90’s underfoot.
Ymmv

[phoenix]

Guess I overlooked the mounting concern about a Paulownia core. Understanding both Voile's recommendations and opinions in discussions here, my own experience is this:

I'm now skiing on my 4th mount on my Voile Objectives; four hole standard spacing and even an added pair for a 6 hole binding. I've done all the mounts, and know how they feel when I set the screws, I fill the old holes properly. I have had no issues and don't expect any. Results may vary depending who's doing the mounting, but that could be true with any skis.

I found a noticeable difference between skiing my HyperVectors (92mm waist) with the soft Excursions or with my "Kenai's". Either can be skied, depends what you want to be able to ski, and where.