Learning to turn with Gammes

[lowangle al]

Why the contradictory advice between these experts? I think it has to do with equipment. On my Fischer TN66 with Alfa Guard boots I can weight and edge the inside ski without getting the arms involved (at least on corn). On my 50mm classic skis in NNN boots I really need to emphasize driving the inside arm and anticipatory torso rotation. Barnett, Gillette, and Dostal were all writing about cross-country. Parker's book was written later, with the intended audience skiing wider skis and stiffer boots.

I think the contradictory advice is a combination of communication issues and the fact that there are many ways to do a tele turn correctly.

Poling needs to be the same as in alpine skiing, not like xc. You can use your poles or not, on most gear. Straight dbl. camber skis may need more unweighting which might require a double pole plant.

[Capercaillie]

That is a great point about poling @lowangle al. If you watch videos of people who turn with an assertive pole plant, they lead with their outside arm, and have a lot less upper body counter-rotation as a result. People who carve high-speed telemark turns tend to lead with their inside arms quite a lot, or at least have their hands perpendicular to the fall line. You can see this in telemark racing videos especially.

[tkarhu]

Back to business. as we will have Winter soon

So talking about getting the inside leg involved:
Barnett, Gillette, and Dostal were all writing about cross-country. Parker's book was written later, with the intended audience skiing wider skis and stiffer boots.

@Capercaillie I checked that the first version of Paul Parker’s Free-Heel Skiing was released in Oct 1988 originally. Barnett’s Cross Country Downhill really is older because it was released in 1983.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1056018

Yet first plastic tele boots were Scarpa Terminator in 1992. So Parker’s instructions are still from the era of leather boots. The subtitle of his book was "The Secrets of Telemark and Parallel Techniques", so Parker does have alpine influences still. By1988 the leather boots had got somewhat sturdier, but skis were still skinnies.
https://youtu.be/Qw9my1lDn1k?si=Z1pCfbl_oEP-Kf5F

[lilcliffy]

So Parker’s instructions are still from the era of leather boots. The subtitle of his book was "The Secrets of Telemark and Parallel Techniques", so Parker does have alpine influences still. By1988 the leather boots had got somewhat sturdier, but skis were still skinnies.

Yes- and despite all of the drama that a stride-initiated telemark turn is not legit-
Parker clearly indicates a striding telemark turn in his most excellent instructional book. (One of many free-heel turning techniques.)

[tkarhu]

I just read through the exercises I collected back then (link below). It seems that what I did with a front ski, telehiro does with a rear ski. Doing that with the rear ski seems slightly challenging balancewise for a tele-b beginner like me, especially on stiff double camber skis.
https://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=5649

It's common for cross-country skiers to inadvertently favor their front leg, and this tendency can be attributed to various factors. The kick-and-glide technique naturally shifts the weight forward. Additionally, the distribution of the head's weight can lead to a forward inclination, impacting posture and relying on the front leg to prevent falls. Having personally encountered these tendencies as a skier, I've actively worked to address and correct them during my skiing experiences.

@CIMA I will reply to the above comment in this XCd specific thread. Some telehiro fans might have lost their temper, if I would have gone into technical details about double camber ski downhill in the telehiro thread by @Capercaillie (link below). viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6241&sid=decc90dfba ... c&start=10

Paul Parker instructs to "steer with your front ski" in his 1988 telemark classic book (image below). And I guess you need to pressure a front ski in order to steer it. So Parker’s vintage technique seems to contradict with the modern b-tele technique of Telehiro in this aspect.

May the front ski pressuring be a conscious strategy related to XCd ski tech?

To make a b-tele turn, I guess you will need at least a flat, or even banana shaped, ski, or two. Otherwise ski tips and tails will bite into snow, preventing a ski from rotating.

When initiating a tele turn on true XC double cambers, you need to weight one ski only in order to push a ski flat, at least, when standing still. At speed, you may be able turn by pressuring both skis evenly because speed adds to the pressure forces like weight does.

In other words, a challenge with learning to turn stiff XC skis is that you can practice certain techniques only at somewhat higher speeds

For example, with stiff XC double cambers you cannot side slip on a mild slope. In my experience, you need 15 degrees or more gradient to side slip with such skis.



The telehiro video above shows, how to build a b-tele turn out of a side slip. That lesson is not doable for a beginner on stiff double cambers.

Here is a link to the great telehiro page, in case someone has not yet found it (below). The video above is from the telehiro b-tele intro.
https://www.otr.pxc.jp/~mahoroba/english.htm

[CIMA]

The picture seems to show a telemark skier applying the alpine parallel turn technique, which is typical in a-tele.

May the front ski pressuring be a conscious strategy related to XCd ski tech?

There are a couple of techniques for XCd skiing. When it comes to b-tele, the nuance is slightly different. Instead of applying pressure on the lead, we slash the snow surface with it.

To make a b-tele turn, I guess you will need at least a flat, or even banana shaped, ski, or two. Otherwise ski tips and tails will bite into snow, preventing a ski from rotating.

When initiating a tele turn on true XC double cambers, you need to weight one ski only in order to push a ski flat, at least, when standing still. At speed, you may be able turn by pressuring both skis evenly because speed adds to the pressure forces like weight does.

In other words, a challenge with learning to turn stiff XC skis is that you can practice certain techniques only at somewhat higher speeds

For example, with stiff XC double cambers you cannot side slip on a mild slope. In my experience, you need 15 degrees or more gradient to side slip with such skis.

I haven't tried skid training with double-cambered cross-country skis before. It's possible that using different gear could present some technical difficulties. It might be best not to become too fixated on the video. I have skied many times before with Rossignol BC70, which also has a double camber, and I didn't experience any of the problems you're concerned about. Additionally, in the video you mentioned earlier, Telehiro demonstrated that b-tele is possible on XCd skis beautifully.

Telehiro explains that turns happen in mid-air, but not in a strictly figurative sense. This means that the ski tops and tails do not dig into the snow. Additionally, we need to consider both static and dynamic loads applied to the skis. The flexures of the skis may differ between the static and dynamic states.

[tkarhu]

@CIMA Thanks for the good points.

I haven't tried skid training with double-cambered cross-country skis before. It's possible that using different gear could present some technical difficulties. It might be best not to become too fixated on the video. I have skied many times before with Rossignol BC70, which also has a double camber, and I didn't experience any of the problems you're concerned about. Additionally, in the video you mentioned earlier, Telehiro demonstrated that b-tele is possible on XCd skis beautifully.

By XC double cambers, I mean paper tested skis. After a paper test, you really know that the force you need to flatten a ski is more than half of your body weight, but less than your full body weight (when standing still). Many on this forum may have double camber skis that are softer than that because a paper tested ski may be too stiff for deep snow.

In theory, b-tele should actually work well with track XC stiffness skis because you weight one ski mainly in b-tele. When doing telehiro’s b-tele walking exercises, it feels like most weight is on your supporting rear leg. The weight should be then enough to bend a stiffer XCd ski, too, because the ski gets more than half body weight, and you are moving. So theoretically, b-tele seems even more applicable to double camber skis than an equally weighted turn.

Maybe it is center of gravity issues that frighten me in a b-tele. When you have more weight on your rear ski, edging its outer edge strongly, there seems to be nothing left to support you, if the ski slips. When edging a front ski inner edge, you still have an inner ski, if the front ski loses grip.

Further, in b-tele, your rear leg waist joint seems to be moving inwards. Or at least your edging pushes the joint in that direction. Whereas weighting your front ski, your leg waist joint is in a neutral position. It is often easier to use force, when a joint is more in a neutral position.

With the vintage XCd skis, telehiro seems to make use of a-tele features more often than with other XCD skis. I would like to learn by experience why he does that.

Telehiro explains that turns happen in mid-air, but not in a strictly figurative sense. This means that the ski tops and tails do not dig into the snow. Additionally, we need to consider both static and dynamic loads applied to the skis. The flexures of the skis may differ between the static and dynamic states.

Yes, you can use that unweighting to help turning. Or to help a lead change, even if telehiro does not use the words lead change to explain, what you need to do. Still your skis need to do tilt to their other edges between turns.

In b-tele, I guess the unweighting is related to braking, too. You load energy into skis when braking, by bending them flat or bananas. Then that "loaded spring" energy lets you move into a unweighted, neutral, relaxed state for a passing moment. In the short passive moment, when your skis are not slashing or cutting into snow, you can then change edges.

[CIMA]

Maybe it is a different center of gravity that frightens me in a b-tele. When you have more weight on your rear ski, and are and are edging a rear ski outer edge strongly, there seems to be nothing left to support you, if the ski slips. Edging a front ski inner edge, you still have an inner ski in case of a front ski edge loses hold.

When we try something new, it's natural to feel scared. However, it's important to understand the difference between the positions of the center in a-tele and b-tele. In a-tele, as shown in the attached figure, the center of turn is located uphill, away from the skier. On the other hand, in b-tele, the center is inside the skier's body, as demonstrated by Telehiro in the later part of the attached video. The feeling of the turn is significantly different between a-tele and b-tele. As the saying goes, "An attempt is sometimes easier than expected." Despite any fears, it's crucial to try it yourself and experience the difference firsthand.

It seems like you are taking a challenging route to learn b-tele right from the start. Long XC skis might not be the best gear for a beginner to learn b-tele. In another thread, I mentioned that it would be better to start on a gentle, soft snow slope with wider skis, such as Falketind Xplore, and gradually learn b-tele techniques. Afterward, start with a mix of b-tele turns and parallel turns on Gammes, gradually transitioning to 100% b-tele turns.

Telehiro explains that turns happen in mid-air, but not in a strictly figurative sense. This means that the ski tops and tails do not dig into the snow. Additionally, we need to consider both static and dynamic loads applied to the skis. The flexures of the skis may differ between the static and dynamic states.

Yes, you can use that unweighting to help turning. Or to help a lead change, even if telehiro does not use the words lead change to explain, what you do.

I guess the unweighting is related to braking, too. You load energy into your skis when braking, by bending them flat or bananas. Then you use that "loaded spring" energy for the unweighting. In the case of a b-tele rear leg, by shortening / contracting the leg.

You seem to have already passed the written test of the b-tele technique.
Let's move on to the practical test!

[CIMA]

@tkarhu
As you have already had experience with kayak, you can apply the feelings you have acquired to the b-tele turn.
I've never tried kayaking, but I can find many similarities between the edging control of the kayak and the turn technique of b-tele when comparing videos on YouTube.
For example, watch the following video:



Let's imagine that Telehiro holds a Lurk pole instead of ski poles, and then you only concentrate on his movements of the pelvis and body axis. Forget about his leg movements for now. You'll see he looks like a paddler approaching downstream and making short turns.

How about thinking this way: when you start a b-tele turn to the right, for example, you imagine riding on a kayak and making a right turn by planting a paddle to the right, simultaneously pressing down your right hip joint and then sweeping your pelvis clockwise while keeping your body upright and facing fall line.

The central part of the pelvis is considered crucial in martial arts, like Judo and Karate, as the core point of the movements. I think the pelvis is also essential when skiing. When I turn in b-tele, I try to sweep my pelvis first, less considering peripherals such as legs or the balls of my foot fingers. Being distracted by the peripheral parts of the body may end up with awkward body movements or a disaster like falling forward.

Finally, there is a big difference in strides between b-tele and cross-country skiing. From my point of view, the movements of the samurai walk (see the video) look very similar to my movements during b-tele turns. However, if correctly speaking, we should add turn movements like kayaking to that walking style to ski in a b-tele way.

I hope this will be some help to you.

[tkarhu]

@tkarhu
As you have already had experience with kayak, you can apply the feelings you have acquired to the b-tele turn.
I've never tried kayaking, but I can find many similarities between the edging control of the kayak and the turn technique of b-tele when comparing videos on YouTube.
For example, watch the following video:



Let's imagine that Telehiro holds a Lurk pole instead of ski poles, and then you only concentrate on his movements of the pelvis and body axis. Forget about his leg movements for now. You'll see he looks like a paddler approaching downstream and making short turns.

Wow, I can really imagine that feel of kayaking, when I watch the above telehiro video! Well done @CIMA, marvellous visualization without any kayaking experience.

How about thinking this way: when you start a b-tele turn to the right, for example, you imagine riding on a kayak and making a right turn by planting a paddle to the right, simultaneously pressing down your right hip joint and then sweeping your pelvis clockwise while keeping your body upright and facing fall line.

I feel that going forward is actually the part of kayaking that has most in common with b-tele. However, I have done sea kayaking only, but have kayaked whitewater boats occasionally.

Sea and WW kayaks have quite different turning radiuses. Yet I think paddling forward technique is the same for both the kayaking disciplines.

When I paddle forward and make a right paddle draw, I press with my right foot against a pedal inside my boat. Before that, I have made a spinal rotation to the left, so my chest is facing slightly to the left. From that position, I release the rotation and make an opposite rotation, when pushing the pedal. During the "lead changes", I keep looking forward. My paddle rotates with my upper body, and I plant it into water close to my boat as near my boat bow that I can reach without leaning forward. Then I repeat the same on my left side. All the time my body weight is on my buttocks mainly, and I move forward with rotational movements, which transmit the force of pedaling to water.

If I want to turn right, I lengthen the left side of my trunk in the area between waist and ribs. Simultaneously, I shorten the right side of my trunk. So when you turn a sea kayak to the right, I think you edge the kayak onto its opposite edge compared to what direction you would edge a ski, when turning to the right.

EDIT: Edging a kayak actually does the same thing as pressuring and bending a ski. Both the maneuvers make your vehicle length shorter. Bottom shapes of sea kayaks are designed so that edging a kayak makes a "swimming hull" shorter than the length of a non-tilted boat. Correspondingly, bending a ski makes its functional length shorter than the length of the ski unweighted. So I guess you edge kayaks and downhill skis in quite different ways due to different mechanisms and reasons behind the maneuvers.

simultaneously pressing down your right hip joint and then sweeping your pelvis

I really do press a right hip joint down. Those are other words for lengthening a side I think. Yet I think I sweep less with a pelvis, but press a foot and rotate my upper body. I guess it goes like that, when kayaking, because you sit and lean your tail bone area against a kayak seat.

When turning right, while edging my boat, I make circular draws with my left paddle blade far away from my boat. When it is time to make a right paddle draw, I make a linear draw near my boat. So you make draws on both sides all the time, when you are turning a sea kayak.

Turning a sea kayak at speed takes several rounds of forward paddling draws. I then keep my kayak edged onto its side until my bow is close to the direction where I want to go.

Sometimes you edge a sea kayak also to keep going straight, when waves want to turn your boat. Waves try to turn a bow to the direction where the waves come from, when you paddle forward. Then you can also use weight transfers forward and backward. With the weight transfers, you can do stuff similar to unweighting skis because when on a wave crest, you can really unweighten a bow or stern. Well you actually use such unweighting also in some ”still water” draws, for example in a bow rudder.

Turning a whitewater kayak may be somewhat different because a sea kayak wants to go straight, but a ww kayak wants to turn. It can be a challenge to go straight with a ww kayak, just like it can be a challenge to XC ski on the flats with downhill sidecut skis.

One difference between edging a kayak and skis is also that you cannot bend a kayak. A kayak is so stiff, and water so fluid, without a solid base, that you cannot make use of kayaking to understand, how you can load your skis by pressuring and bending them.

The central part of the pelvis is considered crucial in martial arts, like Judo and Karate, as the core point of the movements. I think the pelvis is also essential when skiing. When I turn in b-tele, I try to sweep my pelvis first, less considering peripherals such as legs or the balls of my foot fingers. Being distracted by the peripheral parts of the body may end up with awkward body movements or a disaster like falling forward.

Finally, there is a big difference in strides between b-tele and cross-country skiing. From my point of view, the movements of the samurai walk (see the video) look very similar to my movements during b-tele turns. However, if correctly speaking, we should add turn movements like kayaking to that walking style to ski in a b-tele way.

I hope this will be some help to you.

Great to hear how you use pelvis to initiate movements in b-tele. This stuff is difficult to see on a video, but can be crucial to how a movement feels. So words can be really useful here.



Does the above video show, how ”b-tele walking” looks and feels also in your experience CIMA?

For me the video seems to explain also, what you mean by ”the center of a turn being inside a skier’s body” in b-tele. I guess it is related to going downhill in a relatively straight line. Did I get that right?