Beginner boots for Kom/Hok's

[Lo-Fi]

On harder snow, I think softer leathers will have a harder time with a wider ski like the Kom. In softer snow I’ve found that the Kom turns more easily, with any boot, than the the Guide / Annum. I’ve skied both skis with leather Merrell doubles, T3s, T4s and Excursions. I enjoy the Excursions the most for all skis and conditions. They are a wider fit than the Scarpas. The T3 and T4 shell interior is contoured like a drainage ditch from heel to toe and the liner is narrow to fit that. I’ve found a different liner (try a simple wrap Intuition liner swiped from some cheap used Lamar or Morrow snowboard boots - comfier, and way lighter too) or even just a wider fitting Superfeet footbed/insole can help the Scarpas.

[Lo-Fi]

Sorry, I’m talking just about the Koms above. The Hoks and Koms are really very different things.

The Hoks are like a glide-able snow shoe. They climb amazingly but are kind of grabby and require more steepness to get a glide and turning rhythm going. I know a group of hardcore Hok users and they all seem to use plastic boots too.

The Kom is a real ski that maximizes glide and turning, balanced with the fish scales that make them great in rolling terrain or used on steeper uphills with skins.

[turnfarmer]

Agree on Excursion as wider than T4/3. An intuition liner like posted above can be heat molded really thin. I think you would be way better off with an Excursion with a wide ski like Hoks. Also agree about turn ability of Hoks. I have its predecessor from Karhu and the permanent skin is really grabby while the fish scale base of Koms is not nearly as grabby.

[Shirefisher]

For me the conditions dictate which boot I want to use for the Hoks. I will only use My Scott Excursions in the KOMs. If I'm breaking trail in deep snow with the Hoks I'll put on the Alpina Alaskas. Fast packed snow only the Scotts for the Hoks. Soft slow snow is fun also with the Hoks. I can get away with a lot since I mostly ski both set ups with a Lurk or Tiak. So there are times when the snow maybe a little risky but the tiak saves me every time.

[Shirefisher]

Keep in mind, If you need to really rip it up to evade some knarley zombies on the slopes then the plastic Excursions or equivalent boot are the way to go!

[inund8]

I probably should have mentioned that I'm more into the XCD than AT, like rolling terrain. And I don't really expect to being doing a TON of turns this year, since I've never really done telemarking.
With all that said, are plastic boots and Voile Switchbacks really necessary? Or would I be just as well off with leathers and some decent 3pin bindings? With an eye towards upgrading to the switchbacks and plastic eventually?

EDIT: OR alternative to the 3 pin, an NNNBC setup?

[lilcliffy]

Hello and welcome @inund8 !

I have and regualrly use the Hok ski.
I have the 145cm and am 178cm tall; weigh 84kg; and would typically be carrying a field pack with me when using the Hok.

I have tried the following binding boot setups, and have returned to a universal binding with a winter field boot:
- universal binding with winter field boot
- NNNBC with BC-XC boot
- 3pin with both BC-XC boot and plastic telemark boot

Personally- I object to referring or dismissing the Hok as "not a ski"- or a "ski-shoe". The Hok is most defiinitely ski- grippy and slow- yes- but definitely a ski- as anyone will quickly find out if they point them down a steep slope!

As a ski the Hok is short, wide and has no sidecut.
- it is unstable at speed (short)
- is a lot of ski to hold on edge (wide)

So- if one were going to use the Hok as conventional downhill ski- then one needs a lot of boot to drive it/hold it on edge. And it is so short, it quickly becomes unstable in a conventional carved turn. These issues can simply be dealt with by using a lurk/tiak.

So- if one wants to use the Hok as a conventional downhill ski (ie without a lurk/tiak), then there are definitely much better skis out there- including Altai Ski's suberb Kom.

If one is not going to use the Hok as a conventional downhill ski- then use what ever boot (and associated binding) that best suits your use of this excellent ski.

I use the Hok as a traditional, utilitarian bush ski- for striding and shuffling along in deep snow and in very dense northern forest. I use it for my winter fieldwork- both on my own farm and woodlot, as well as winter forestry fieldwork. As such- I wear winter field boots and use a universal binding with the Hok. I also frequently use the Hok with my chainsaw boots if I am anticipating needing to use a chainsaw.

As already pointed to- here and elsewhere- Eurasian Indigneous (and Finnic) peoples have been using skis like the Hok for thousands of years with nothing more than a leather mukluk and a leather strap binding. And some of those traditional Indigenous skis are much larger- longer, wider- and heavier than the Hok. But, they are using a lurk/tiak for stability in steep terrain.

[Lo-Fi]

...Personally- I object to referring or dismissing the Hok as "not a ski"- or a "ski-shoe". The Hok is most definitely ski- grippy and slow- yes- but definitely a ski- as anyone will quickly find out if they point them down a steep slope!
...

Oh, I didn't mean to disparage the Hoks. I've tried them and they are lot of fun and offer great utility too, as you described.

I guess I was just trying to differentiate them from traditional skis, that perhaps more people would relate to. Also, to highlight what an effective backcountry ski that the Kom is in a (modern)traditional sense.

If someone is only used to regular skis, they may be surprised/disappointed in the reduced glide of the Hok. If they are used to the Hoks, they may be surprised/and freaked out by how slippery and powerful the Koms are as a ski.

To the original post, @inund8, for sure downhill skills can be worked on with the 125 Hoks. I would suggest though, for example, learning tele turns will be adapted to those Hoks and will be more challenging to learn on than on traditional downhill oriented tele skis. Also, those Hok skills will be less readily transferred to skiing traditional skis - compared to the other way around.

Finally, while different boots will incrementally change the downhill performance of Hoks, a possible move to plastic boots and Koms (as implied by the thread title(?)) would welcome you to a potentially limitless world of downhill turning bliss!

[Manney]

Personally- I object to referring or dismissing the Hok as "not a ski"- or a "ski-shoe".

Understand the sensitivities. Maybe it comes from others’ misunderstandings of how such skis are best used… in deep snow, forested areas, carrying loads etc. Like you use them. Makes perfect sense, just like using a skinny ski in a narrow track.

The reason for coming into this thread isn’t to rub anyone the wrong way. In a discussion elsewhere, Finnish and French terms were revealed that were particular to, and descriptive of, Hok type skiing. Thought you might find these useful (the words and translations are not mine but contributions by native speakers of the languages used).

https://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6046

Finnish… Liukulumikengät. Sliding snowshoes. Liukulumikenkäily (the sport). Connected to skiing on Altai style skis.

French… Ski raquette = Generally refer to skiing with the Hoks… but we can commonly hear and see “Ski hok” and this has a pretty obvious meaning

The Finnish term is like the French one, as “raquette” evokes mental image of a snowshoe (they are shaped like rackets). So the Finnish and French terms frame things in both functional movement (sliding) and effect (broadly supportive) in ways that our English minds might have trouble dealing with.

This was one of the later discoveries in compiling the thread on terminology. My initial use was in search strings to find stuff that wasn’t indexed on the web in English.

Other cultures have ways of describing things that can be helpful in better understanding skiing. The can sometimes cut through the cultural baggage that gets stuck unnecessarily to terms.

[mca80]

I'd be curious to see the German terminology for sliding on a Hok-type ski.