Breathable Mid Layer

[fisheater]

I am a big fan of wool, however I don’t own any merino wool underwear. I would like to have that wool underwear, but I can’t bring myself to pay for it. I only wear wool socks in the winter. Yes, my synthetic underwear stinks. It’s one use, and that is one reason I keep telling myself to spend money on wool. I need to pack fresh underwear for every day on a road trip. I guess I have a good stock of cheap synthetic, I may buy a new pair every season, but that leaves more money for gas and lodging on the road.
For my higher aerobic activities in the winter, the first couple times I usually overdress and get sweaty. I then, finally get it and go out cold, and find myself very comfortable in 5 minutes.
I think if I were doing overnights, I would want wool for its insulating qualities when wet. I ski in wool pants frequently. I also have a wool sweater, but it usually gets more very cold weather use.
One piece of clothing I use a lot, are a couple of cheap, pile lined 100% acrylic, flannel shirts. I can button or unbutton as much as needed for breathablility, or wind. They offer moderate protection from wind, and all the insulation I need until it gets pretty cold. Of course cold is dependent upon wind as well.
I don’t pay a lot of money for my clothes. Army surplus wool, cheap synthetic underwear, mostly thin base layer stuff, but I’m not adverse to doubling up. Most of the more expensive stuff I have bought over the years was mostly just spending money for a brand label.
Just my experience. I do think Gore-Tex and Thinsulite are brands worth paying for, with the caveat I have had good results with other laminated fabrics.
I guess a comfortable light pack, allowing the adjustment of layers is more effective than any miracle clothing out there.
I hope I don’t come out snarky. This is what I do, and my opinion. I’m not saying my way is better, I’m just sharing my experiences.

[Manney]

Online sales and outlets. The stuff is still expensive. But nothing except 30% off or better gets worn in this household.

[corlay]

My layering “system” was largely decided upon for flexibility.
I use:
Smartwool top & bottom baselayer
Rab 200-weight fleece
Rab lightweight insulated vest (w/ Pertex)
Mountain Equipment mid-weight soft-shell

I always have the Smartwool base layer on, regardless of temp. The 2 Rab garments have stretch material (instead of insulation) at the pits and down the sides. This seems to help a bunch with venting.

from there, its a combination of layers selected for the conditions that day.

when its cold (<10F), the whole “system” is on. when warm (>30F) and no wind, it might be just the baselayer and the vest. Mostly, im using a baselayer/fleece/soft shell combo.

I have thought about getting a heavier weight fleece (like the “Monkey Man”), to supplant the 200-weight fleece for really cold days and/or if Im snowboarding at a resort.

[Capercaillie]

If you are getting too hot, you have too much insulation, in the wrong places. Changing insulation material is not going to help that, neither is the marketing BS about "breathable insulation." As you have discovered, Arcteryx is happy to take your money to sell you a "new and improved" insulated jacket that soaks sweat better because it is too warm and makes you sweat (bro, you HAVE to get the 2024 Arcteryx Zeta Beta Gamma, it soaks up 200% more sweat is 200% more breathable!!! And it's named after a sorority!!!). Ditch the hoody for a non-insulated base layer and try a vest over that.

[Theme]

@Theme "More advanced fleece options are way better than wool. Wool retains a lot of moisture, fleece doesn't".
You typed two sentences here. The second is mostly true but over stated. A better sentence would be; while both fabrics retain moisture, fleece drys more quickly.

Your first sentence is simply your opinion which I disagree with.

If you are going to be objective about comparing wool and fleece, you will find they are very evenly matched with their own advantages and disadvantages. Take the sentence above; fleece drys more quickly. Yes, but wool retains it's insulation properties while wet, but fleece losses is insulation properties while wet. We could go on down the line, point and counterpoint and end up with what we have here, two very evenly matched fabrics. It then comes down to a personal choice.

There are those that applaud all of our species technological advancements as the end all and be all. In 1979 fleece was invented as yet another amazing use for petroleum. Well now we are literally swimming in the stuff. Some companies will tout their green practices, hey maybe they will even farm the stuff from the Texas sized island in the Pacific. Or maybe they can mine it from the micro particles that surround us. Yes we know the fabric gets smelly almost instantly, but hey we have a chemical we can apply that will kill those microbes. Anyone who has hiked in the rain during summer months knows you have two choices, even with the most "breathable" high tech synthetic, wear it and get wet from sweat or take it off and get wet from rain. In my experience the real world claims of these high tech products are dubious at best.

Humans have been wearing wool for thousands of years. As long as we take care in how we decide to obtain that wool, it will be my choice where it makes sense. Of course I do have synthetic clothing items I wear while skiing down the hill on my wood, metal and yes plastic skis, lol.

While I could have been more careful to state the claims - I was specifically trying to point out the difference which has actual benefits for OPs sake.

I do not mean to be mean or anything here - you are misinformed about this. What makes wool 'retain its insulating prooerties when wet' a good thing, and why is this not the case with certain types of fleece I am talking about? The case is - wool soaks more moisture, meaning a greater loss of heat over a period of time. Whereas fleece retains noticeably less moisture = less wasted heat over time. The structure of the fabric then is what keeps the insulation active, but what really then matters is the wasted energy total. Fleeces do not collapse or soak through, so the statement you made is false-

I have personally trained the scenario of falling through ice with different kinds of layering systems multiple times. Sometimes, your only option is to wring the clothes as dry as you can, put them back on and ski on to
Dry them/keep warm. While wool can also be used, the difference to Alpha is two-fold and matters a ton when you are faced with the extreme and unlikely - but also translates to everyday touring especially if you have a sweat issue.

I do largely agree on other things you said, albeit not relevant here. While adding silver reduces smell to merino wool levels, it does make some of the fabrics non-recyclable, but then again if the garment has elastane it is anyways not good for recycling. Elastane does retain a lot of moisture, which is why one should aim at acquiring garments without it - it is also an issue durability wise. By the way, the fleece optiona I mentioned are 2-3 times more durable compared to similar warmth merino layers. I have thousands of kilometers of nordic touring under my belt and so does my partner. We stand uniform in this matter.

[Manney]

It’s always a tough one. Conventional wisdom is “be bold, start cold”. Kinda fails if you have a gear failure or injury 10 miles in at 20 below tho.

Layer up, layer down seems more sensible. Pit and leg zips in between.

SmartWool kicks ass for socks. Haven’t tried Darned Tough… but they look the part and apparently offer free replacement. Icebreaker socks are warm but short lived… not great value.

Thin merino tights are nice. Wear fast though… last about a season before wearing out at friction points. Doesn’t matter the brand, they all wear out fast.

Any heavyweight merino layers (over 200 gsm) last years. Lots of my stuff is 5+ years old, still in perfect shape. The light stuff (120-150) thins out in that time. They get sent down to the minor leagues for warmer temps (winter base becomes spring riding gear), so it all works out.

Washing and drying is a big part of getting the longest life out of wool. And it has a pretty long life if you can see past the odd hole or fray.

[JB TELE]

Unless you can cite some kind of scientific study, most if this is just personal preference and experiences.

The facts are, synthetics dry faster, if completely submerged would absorb less water than wool, and get stinky.
Wool dries slower, would absorb more weight in water if fully submerged, and get less stinky. Most people would agree that damp wool feels drier than damp synthetics.

Warm while wet, breathability, thermoregulation, that's all personal perception and personal experience at this point.

[Manney]

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... f_Moisture

The aim of the research was an attempt to determinate the thermal conductivity of insulating knitted fabrics, hydrophilic (wool knitted fabric) and hydrophobic (polyester fleece fabric – polartec) ones with various comparable amount of moisture in them. In the study a special measuring system was used. An overall thermal transmittance of the samples varying in moisture content has been measured and a thermal conductivity was calculated and analyzed. The experiment showed that dry samples of polyester knitted fabric (polartec) are warmer than dry wool samples, which is connected with their bigger thickness. However, when an increase in moisture of samples occurs, a sudden decrease of their thermal properties is observed. The wool fabric instead, despite containing the same amount of moisture does not change their good insulating properties.

My personal preference is for things that are dirt cheap and perform like something out of Area 51. Haven’t been able to find anything like that yet, so my personal experience is that going cheap on things doesn’t achieve the desired outcome.

The price differential between high performance synthetics and certain wool blends is small. It’s possible to flip the paradigm by hunting for deals, buying out of season, end of lines etc. So it really comes down to performance.

[Theme]

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... f_Moisture

The aim of the research was an attempt to determinate the thermal conductivity of insulating knitted fabrics, hydrophilic (wool knitted fabric) and hydrophobic (polyester fleece fabric – polartec) ones with various comparable amount of moisture in them. In the study a special measuring system was used. An overall thermal transmittance of the samples varying in moisture content has been measured and a thermal conductivity was calculated and analyzed. The experiment showed that dry samples of polyester knitted fabric (polartec) are warmer than dry wool samples, which is connected with their bigger thickness. However, when an increase in moisture of samples occurs, a sudden decrease of their thermal properties is observed. The wool fabric instead, despite containing the same amount of moisture does not change their good insulating properties.

I have a hard time to take citations of a summary of a study conducted in 2008. Prior to that synthetics were not as advanced. Also, the results may or may not have any real-life applications. I would be very interested to see if there are any recent studies. Also to go through these studies to see how measurements were taken and how does it translate to actual use. Differences in fabric weights and loft etc should be taken into account, to ensure proper comparison. Does not sound like this is the case in this study.

[Manney]

Yes… science was so immature before the Trump/Berlusconi/Johnson/Putin era. Makes me wonder how we didn’t freeze to death back then.