Legality/morality of trail building and modification

[Lhartley]

Sounds like reducing forest fuel load. Sell it that way if your state is affected by fires.

This would certainly be my main argument, and the reason I'd almost feel emboldened to NOT follow the rules if I'm told no clearing is allowed. I'm all for forestry and enjoy the meadows produced, but what the province allows to be left behind is unacceptable to me

[Inspiredcapers]

Your intentions make sense

[Lhartley]

Haha. I seen your response. It was a good one. Idk. I shouldn't have said anything and went in like ninja. Was just curious because there's been talk of trail maintenance on this forum before and wondered what's possible. Personally I see so much more possibility that what's standard in my area, but everything I see is "almost" good to go, and usually because of logging

[Lhartley]

I figured out how to attach photos. This is the zone, I hike here a lot and just want some good lines. They're there but either get sun or wind exposure, or ruined by logging slash. It's a tough area to ski

[Krummholz]

I see no problem if it’s already dead. I have done some maintenance in a burn area near me. Mainly cutting out burnt tree trunk snags. They are starting to rot out and fall over. I’m just helping them along to cut down the risk of snapping an ankle. I didn’t want to be too obvious so I never lugged a chainsaw up there. I started out with a hand saw and have moved up to battery reciprocating saw.

[TallGrass]

Been scouting new xcd terrain lately and wondering what people's personal policy and different government policy applies. I've been mostly looking at cut blocks on crown Land in wild land areas in Alberta.

I've not dealt with "Northern Neighbor's Laws" though suspect many will rhyme with I've seen. Please ask your nearest beaver, moose, or mountie to translate.

First thing is to ID the body with jurisdiction such as USFS, BLM, State Park, etc., then find the local office or applicable Ranger District, as well as "use type." I say "use type" because we have Federal "Wilderness" (capital W) which prohibits motors and wheels (rescue helicopters and wheelchairs get a pass), so no chain saws.

Next, ask them for what the respective Do's and Dont's are, AND if they know where you can print off a copy (just to CYA). Some allow wood harvesting, but require a permit. Some are fine with clearing logs, but not those used for erosion control or used as "curbs" for trail. Some think maintaining is great, others might think it a liability.

In "my" experience, all who I've asked have been fine with "hikers" (climbers, skiers, snowshoers, kayakers, ...) clearing "minor" trail obstructions such as stuff one or two people can move off the trail, but advise to leave big stuff (6" diam... 15cm diameter on up) and "widowmakers" (hung up logs) alone. They do NOT want to see people getting hurt or lost, and also avoid new, braided, redundant trails but understand why some "new" ones happen that snake around widowmakers and stuff too big to climb over and too low to go under safely.

Chopping out a 1-4' section of ground-level fallen trees, lopping willows, and flagging off tree branches that have overgrown a trail or made a "hurdle" is fine and welcome as they are short staffed. Now if you and your friend are trained loggers (arborist) with a two-person crosscut saw and all the tack, they aren't likely to stop you either. I bet some will even point you to a class or info on proper felling and bucking, if asked.

WARNING: Trees, logs and branches can store a LOT of tension and compression forces, and there are various arborist skills in both identifying and safely relieving them when clearing to avoid significant personal injury... or worse.

Likewise, some people will lay a log on the downhill side of puddle to walk across, which gets pushed down into the mud, becomes a damn, and makes the puddle both bigger and stagnant -- you don't have to look down to see them as the swarms of mosquitoes will alert you to where in the trail they are. Getting the trail to properly drain, if you know what you're doing, has also gotten the "o.k."

Things they don't like are people who do not know what they are doing, people caring initials in trees, people making rock cairns for art/IG/FB, and those who burn the wooden "campfires prohibited" signs.

Cleared trail isn't just nice for hikers, but also for Search and Rescue, backcountry porters (private or packing in stuff on horses, mules, llamas for trail work), and fire teams. Yet it's a "treatment not a cure" as every season sees more stuff fall, and often only "main" trails ever make the list. IMHO, a trail that makes good and proper use of things like blazes and cairns also reduces S&R calls by making it easier for people to self-rescue and get back to the trail head in the dark, fog, snow, and or whiteout -- something fair-weather daytime summer hikers who topple cairns because "there's too many... real hikers don't need them..." don't seem to think about.

The one XC/BC skier/snowshoer caveat I can think of is snow will cover a lot of stuff up so there's a greater reliance on blazes (where allowed, and per guidelines) and flagging (where any branches on the trail-side of a tree are cut off) so people can spot the "hallway" through the forest.

If you're serious and want to tool up, look into a Woodsman's Pal (aka "LC-14-B" in the military) versus a machete, and packable saws (Silky, HarborFright, pocket chain saw [chain with handles, no motor] for bigger stuff. Add some ratchet straps and a come-along to your vehicle kit, and it'll also come in handy if a tree falls across the forest road blocking your access back to pavement.

[Lhartley]

Been scouting new xcd terrain lately and wondering what people's personal policy and different government policy applies. I've been mostly looking at cut blocks on crown Land in wild land areas in Alberta.

I've not dealt with "Northern Neighbor's Laws" though suspect many will rhyme with I've seen. Please ask your nearest beaver, moose, or mountie to translate.

First thing is to ID the body with jurisdiction such as USFS, BLM, State Park, etc., then find the local office or applicable Ranger District, as well as "use type." I say "use type" because we have Federal "Wilderness" (capital W) which prohibits motors and wheels (rescue helicopters and wheelchairs get a pass), so no chain saws.

Next, ask them for what the respective Do's and Dont's are, AND if they know where you can print off a copy (just to CYA). Some allow wood harvesting, but require a permit. Some are fine with clearing logs, but not those used for erosion control or used as "curbs" for trail. Some think maintaining is great, others might think it a liability.

In "my" experience, all who I've asked have been fine with "hikers" (climbers, skiers, snowshoers, kayakers, ...) clearing "minor" trail obstructions such as stuff one or two people can move off the trail, but advise to leave big stuff (6" diam... 15cm diameter on up) and "widowmakers" (hung up logs) alone. They want to people getting hurt or lost, and also avoid new, braided, redundant trails but understand why some "new" ones happen that snake around widowmakers and stuff too big to climb over and too low to go under safely.

Chopping out a 1-4' section of ground-level fallen trees, lopping willows, and flagging off tree branches that have overgrown a trail or made a "hurdle" is fine and welcome as they are short staffed. Now if you and your friend are trained loggers (arborist) with a two-person crosscut saw and all the tack, they aren't likely to stop you either. I bet some will even point you to a class or info on proper felling and bucking, if asked.

WARNING: Trees, logs and branches can store a LOT of tension and compression forces, and there are various arborist skills in both identifying and safely relieving them when clearing to avoid significant personal injury... or worse.

Likewise, some people will lay a log on the downhill side of puddle to walk across, which gets pushed down into the mud, becomes a damn, and makes the puddle both bigger and stagnant -- you don't have to look down to see them as the swarms of mosquitoes will alert you to where in the trail they are. Getting the trail to properly drain, if you know what you're doing, has also gotten the "o.k."

Things they don't like are people who do not know what they are doing, people caring initials in trees, people making rock cairns for art/IG/FB, and those who burn the wooden "campfires prohibited" signs.

Cleared trail isn't just nice for hikers, but also for Search and Rescue, backcountry porters (private or packing in stuff on horses, mules, llamas for trail work), and fire teams. Yet it's a "treatment not a cure" as every season sees more stuff fall, and often only "main" trails ever make the list. IMHO, a trail that makes good and proper use of things like blazes and cairns also reduces S&R calls by making it easier for people to self-rescue and get back to the trail head in the dark, fog, snow, and or whiteout -- something fair-weather daytime summer hikers who topple cairns because "there's too many... real hikers don't need them..." don't seem to think about.

The one XC/BC skier/snowshoer caveat I can think of is snow will cover a lot of stuff up so there's a greater reliance on blazes (where allowed, and per guidelines) and flagging (where any branches on the trail-side of a tree are cut off) so people can spot the "hallway" through the forest.

If you're serious and want to tool up, look into a Woodsman's Pal (aka "LC-14-B" in the military) versus a machete, and packable saws (Silky, HarborFright, pocket chain saw [chain with handles, no motor] for bigger stuff. Add some ratchet straps and a come-along to your vehicle kit, and it'll also come in handy if a tree falls across the forest road blocking your access back to pavement.

Thank you for your thorough input, always appreciate you writing!

Great suggestion on the Sawzall from Krummolz as well. I had not considered that and need a reason to pick up an m18 saw anyway. Thanks all, lots to go on

[LazyTelemarker]

20231019_184701.jpg

I figured out how to attach photos. This is the zone, I hike here a lot and just want some good lines. They're there but either get sun or wind exposure, or ruined by logging slash. It's a tough area to ski

Calgary skier here. I've hiked a bit in that area, and might have skied that hill to the right (or was it one of the nearby ones?) way back in 2005 when I was working on a project nearby and the foothills got hit with an epic November dump. That same November I also enjoyed good skiing on the west aspect of the hill in the background (Mesa aka Square Butte).
I didn't ski again in that area until March 2020, when the foothills snowpack was unusually deep and supportive, and some newer logging cuts on the west side of the Mclean Creek road provided good touring and turns on Scarpa T2's and K2 Coombacks. That same winter, very good skiing was had in the steeper logging cuts accessed from the Bragg Creek xc trails. Having said that- as much as I LIKE the idea of XCD in the foothills SW of Calgary- the reality of an unreliable, shallow weak snowpack means that most years, if I'm not skiing the groomed tracks on classic gear, I'm touring around gentle meadows, multi-use trails, or old logging and exploration roads on NNN-BC and Glitterinds. Looking forward to maybe exchanging some ideas as the winter progresses towards a snowpack that (hopefully) allows for more foothills off trail skiing!

[Inspiredcapers]

Whenever I cruise highway 22 south of Chain Lakes/North of the highway 3 turnoff I look at those long rolling Foothills and dream of a major snow event that allows for easy access to YoYo skiing for a day…

[Lhartley]

Upgraded the trail saw game, figured out that the 330mm Silky Zubat saw fits perfectly in the lightweight g3 bonesaw case. Get the saw blade at a discount, junk the bonesaw because it's kinda junk