What boots to buy??

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spopepro
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Re: What boots to buy??

Post by spopepro » Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:29 pm

lilcliffy wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2023 1:19 pm
spopepro wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2023 2:06 pm
I think the “Sierra Cement” and “Cascade Concrete” nicknames are a little exaggerated… but it is true that our maritime snowpack holds more water than most places. We typically see 10-12 to 1 snow/water ratios at 7k. That’s pretty heavy compared to the Rockies, but it honestly isn’t too bad. It does tend to consolidate fast (which is great for keeping our avy danger lower) and the sun does frequently melt the top with refreezing overnight.

I’ve been happy with my combo of MR48 skin skis with nnn-bc, and objective BCs with 3pin. Honestly, I don’t see much use for things in between because the speed penalty on the flats isn’t offset enough by better turning. I think everything is too steep here—there isn’t as much rolling open terrain.
@spopepro
Do you deal with the crust that @Love the Sierra describes?
And- if so- how is the Objective on crust? And what boots are you using on the Objective?
Yeah, I've skied those conditions, most recently on a little tour at donner summit and I did take my Objectives (mounted with voile 3pin on risers, wasn't using the cables). This group is going to think it's nuts, but I ski them most often with T2x boots. Certainly if I had T4s I'd use those, but honestly I find the T2xs to be so comfy that I've put lots and lots of miles on them. Let's be honest, you aren't getting a ton of glide with objectives, so the K&G feel lost by having heavy boots is somewhat moot.

And even with big boots and bigger skis it *still* sucks. The Objectives stay on top of the crust most of the time, but not all of the time. It's still rough skiing and I will just go to the resort, nordic trails, or go for a trail run back at home if it's looking like the particular combo of old wet snow, 40-45F sunny days and 20-25F clear nights. Which is kinda often sadly.

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spopepro
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Re: What boots to buy??

Post by spopepro » Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:37 pm

I should note--that the same conditions that create rough, irregularly breakable crust are *also* the exact same conditions that create glorious corn conditions in the spring when the snow has had many of these cycles and the days are a little longer. So it's tough to really complain.



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Love the Sierra
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Re: What boots to buy??

Post by Love the Sierra » Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:06 am

@spopepro I love to Sierra and all the conditions and snow it throws at us. Including our crust and cement, etc! So here is the crux of the problem, I almost never get to enjoy that corn since to get to it, I have to ski through sun cups, cross lots of creeks, hike at least a couple of miles or more to even get to skinable snow., of course, in reverse order, actually. I see some AT folks, who are lookin for a thrilling downhill run, riding bikes until sun cups, skin over sun cups and then FINALLY get to ski down. At that point, I would rather put on my crampons and hike on foot without skis. Sun cups are hard enough to walk over, I can only imagine how tough to ski. …But maybe if I had a wider ski??

@lilcliffy I also do not understand why they always want to size me down. The Svartisen’s are a beautiful boot. The leather and workmanship is superb! It will cost $20 in shipping for not standing my ground and insisting Martin send the 41. However, if I had “normally” shaped feet, the length would have probably been correct. So many years backpacking with a too heavy pack have,made tough to buy shoes and boots. I even backpacked pregnant and my feet took me everywhere I wanted to go. So I do not complain about my feet. I do complain about nlasts. :D I just hope that the 41 will fit.

@lilcliffy Sorry for the confusion, yes, I meant the Epoch’s when I said Madshus 98.

@lilcliffy I apologize for the ignorant question, what do ou mean by “Objective” ?

@Manney excellent perspective that me on a 98 is like a heavy man on much wider ski. I do appreciate your perspective in general. It has really gotten me thinking, when do I wish I had a different ski or more control? First of all, we put on the skins once when we get too much backslide to tolerate, climb for a good part of the day, enjoy views and make our way down. If thee is a short steep part for only a few yards, i will power through or herring bone. Skins only go on and then off once in a day. It is making our way down that I often feel like I am fighting with all my might to keep that snow plough and control my edges. More after a new snowfall. I cannot say deep powder, since our snow would be considered too heavy to call powder.
Sometimes, very rarely, we have a very cold snowfall and we get fluffy powder like the Rockies. Those are the times we can do whatever we want and are amazed taht our skis are buried out of sight and yet do exactly what we want with so little effort! How fun it is!! …But rare indeed.
So after a long skin up, my daughter and I always say to each other “I am SO GLAD we have our Fisher 88’s!! Any wider ski would ave made that so much harder!” …But the we have to make our way down.
After tons of research, I finally was able to uncover the ski we had rented way back when. Your trick, @Manney of identify the graphic really helped me confirm that back in the day, when I had rented several different pairs, I had tried the Epoch’s and found them to be so very fatiguing and slow going up. However, the control coming down an in deeper snow was so easy. I also tried the Fisher 98 and found them just snappier going up than the Madshus but not much more control than the 88’s on the down. This was in 2014 so I am thinking, with much more experience behind me, and now going out in more difficult terrain, I will appreciate the Epoch’s. Also, perhaps, I will be able to realize my dream of ditching snowshoes for Spring multi day backpacks. The heaviest ski wou always be better than snowshoes!
As a final anecdote, this past season, with crazy high snowfall, I was navigating far from huge mountains of snow that were created by wind and did not exist on the map. My usual routes were no longer safe. So, it was a year of exploring while watching the slope angles and aspects like a hawk. One day, we ended up climbing up a hill, that is so unimportant, it is barely. Squiggle on the map. (Still a total of over 1000’ climb that day, but not on the map, nevertheless.) It was in an area I know like my backyard. As I always do, I HAD to ski up just a little more to see what I could see when I got out of the trees. WOW!!! What a view! I saw all the mountains for at least a couple hundred miles!! And here I had skied and backpacked in my usual routes all these years and had been in trees and missed this! WOW! So, here is the funny part that will tell you all something about my reasons for being out there… This was the same direction and (safely) under Mammoth Mountain. I began to ask all of the alpine skiers I know, “What is the view like at the top of Mammoth? Is it spectacular? Do you ogle all the way to Yosemite and half dome like I did that day?” Not ONE has been able to tell me about the view! Not ONE ! They all say, “Who looks at views? I just want my turn going down fast after waiting in line to go up the lift.” In my opinion, why go out if you are not going to enjoy the views and the forest and the water features, and the sparkling snow in sunlight and the pink snow at dusk and dawn and the occasional giant raptor in the sky, etc?



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Love the Sierra
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Re: What boots to buy??

Post by Love the Sierra » Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:11 am

@fisheater thank you for the info on the Rotte binding. That is the one I was thinking of getting. I definitely do not want to spend 15 minutes or more with cables on cables off. That is another reason I love my new Pomoca skins, fast on and off! The cables would go on when the skins go off and vice versa.



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Manney
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Re: What boots to buy??

Post by Manney » Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:43 am

Glad the trick of identifying top sheet graphics worked for you, @Love the Sierra. Not always easy with older skis, different markets… but it’s good when it works.

Edge control… Do you regularly tune your edges? Set edge angles? De-tune nose and tail edges? This is the sort of thing that can help an “ok” ski deliver great performance in icy or really firm snow conditions, where you need good lateral control without losing the ski’s ability to turn.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4853&p=61307&hilit= ... 528#p61292
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lilcliffy
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Re: What boots to buy??

Post by lilcliffy » Fri Jul 21, 2023 12:29 pm

spopepro wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:29 pm
lilcliffy wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2023 1:19 pm
@spopepro
Do you deal with the crust that @Love the Sierra describes?
And- if so- how is the Objective on crust? And what boots are you using on the Objective?
Yeah, I've skied those conditions, most recently on a little tour at donner summit and I did take my Objectives (mounted with voile 3pin on risers, wasn't using the cables). This group is going to think it's nuts, but I ski them most often with T2x boots. Certainly if I had T4s I'd use those, but honestly I find the T2xs to be so comfy that I've put lots and lots of miles on them. Let's be honest, you aren't getting a ton of glide with objectives, so the K&G feel lost by having heavy boots is somewhat moot.
Cool! I don't think it is nuts to to use the T2 with the Objective- at all! Whatever works for you! And many find the T2 more comfortable to tour in than the T4.
Regardless even the Objective can be a lot of ski if one wants to bend it/carve it/drive it. Those using a Nordic touring boot on the Objective are in ideal snow conditions.
And even with big boots and bigger skis it *still* sucks. The Objectives stay on top of the crust most of the time, but not all of the time. It's still rough skiing and I will just go to the resort, nordic trails, or go for a trail run back at home if it's looking like the particular combo of old wet snow, 40-45F sunny days and 20-25F clear nights. Which is kinda often sadly.
8-)
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.



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lilcliffy
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Re: What boots to buy??

Post by lilcliffy » Fri Jul 21, 2023 12:30 pm

spopepro wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:37 pm
I should note--that the same conditions that create rough, irregularly breakable crust are *also* the exact same conditions that create glorious corn conditions in the spring when the snow has had many of these cycles and the days are a little longer. So it's tough to really complain.
8-)
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.



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lilcliffy
Posts: 4147
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm
Location: Stanley, New Brunswick, Canada
Ski style: backcountry Nordic ski touring
Favorite Skis: Asnes Ingstad, Combat Nato, Amundsen, Rabb 68; Altai Kom
Favorite boots: Alpina Alaska BC; Lundhags Expedition; Alfa Skaget XP; Scarpa T4
Occupation: Forestry Professional
Instructor at Maritime College of Forest Technology
Husband, father, farmer and logger

Re: What boots to buy??

Post by lilcliffy » Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:04 pm

Love the Sierra wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:06 am
@lilcliffy I also do not understand why they always want to size me down.
Telemark Down claims on their website that the Svartisen "In this boot sizes run a full size larger -"
https://aspinockwoods.com/shop/ols/prod ... -or-nnn-bc
They have had this posted for many years- it is either simply incorrect and has never been updated- or somehow both you and I got a weird pair of Svartisens that are not sized consistently with the rest of TD's stock? (I ordered mine from EU BTW).
My Svatisens do not run a size large- my 42EU Svartisen is a 42 (i.e. not a "43" in disguise). A 42 is a performance fit for me in terms of footbed length. and the Svartisen is no exception- there is absolutley no way I could get my foot into a 41 without completely curling up my toes. BTW- the footbed length of my 42 Svartisen is the same as my other Crispi boots, and the same as all my other Euro 42 boots.
The Svartisen’s are a beautiful boot. The leather and workmanship is superb! It will cost $20 in shipping for not standing my ground and insisting Martin send the 41. However, if I had “normally” shaped feet, the length would have probably been correct. So many years backpacking with a too heavy pack have,made tough to buy shoes and boots. I even backpacked pregnant and my feet took me everywhere I wanted to go. So I do not complain about my feet. I do complain about nlasts. :D I just hope that the 41 will fit.
You don't have abnormal feet- they recommended the wrong size!
If the 41EU Fischer BCX6 was the correct length last for your feet- the 41EU Svartisen will be as well.
@lilcliffy Sorry for the confusion, yes, I meant the Epoch’s when I said Madshus 98.
8-) Fischer's instance on using the shovel width in their model-naming makes it very confusing.
The Fischer 88 & 98, and the Madshus Epoch/68 are all the same width underfoot- which is the dimension that matters most.
@lilcliffy I apologize for the ignorant question, what do ou mean by “Objective” ?
I am referring the Voile Objective BC ski that spopepro is touring with in the Cascades.
It has really gotten me thinking, when do I wish I had a different ski or more control?

I had tried the Epoch’s and found them to be so very fatiguing and slow going up. However, the control coming down an in deeper snow was so easy.
The Epoch/P68 is not a bigger ski than your Fischer 88 (not in an equivalent length)- they are the same width underfoot.

My guess is that you found the Epoch/P68 more tiring uphill because of lack of grip.
The 88 is less tiring uphill because of better scale traction. Traction is a big f'n deal. Insufficient grip is not only frustrating (my featherweight- but extremely athletic- oldest daughter once told me should would never ski with me again until I fixed her lack of grip!), but it is also exhausting!

The Epoch/P68 performs better (is easier to "control") downhill first and foremost because of its low camber and soft, round flex- MUCH easier to pressure into turns than your stiff, cambered 88!
I also tried the Fisher 98 and found them just snappier going up than the Madshus but not much more control than the 88’s on the down.
This also makes sense to me. There have been a number of versions of the Fischer "98" (i.e. same width as the Fischer 88 & Madshus P68/Epoch) that are just as stiff and cambered as the Fischer "88"- this is what you tried. Snappier than the softer, less cambered Epoch/P68- but just as much of a handful going downhill as the Fischer "88".

Recent reports suggest that the current Fischer 98 has a low camber and round flex. The current model that I handled in December was consistent with this. Tom M has a video that demonstrates this.
This was in 2014 so I am thinking, with much more experience behind me, and now going out in more difficult terrain, I will appreciate the Epoch’s. Also, perhaps, I will be able to realize my dream of ditching snowshoes for Spring multi day backpacks. The heaviest ski wou always be better than snowshoes!
You could also consider testing a narrower ski...Especially if you are sticking with soft Nordic touring boots (vs Telemark boots).
Remember that you found the Epoch/P68 tiring...
The current model has the same scale design- it is not designed for climbing.
You will probable end up using your skins more than on the grippier Fischer 88...

Can you rent again?
Can you try the current, less-cambered Ficher 98?
And perhaps a narrower ski as well?
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.



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Manney
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Re: What boots to buy??

Post by Manney » Fri Jul 21, 2023 2:55 pm

Boiling everything down to the width underfoot is an oversimplification. Why? Because the portion of the ski underfoot barely touches the ground when the ski is compressed. And a ski with a high of stiff camber may not even do that. This is why wax pockets or scales are much longer than would otherwise be the case.

The front and rear positions of the ski will most definitely address the snow even when partially loaded. The shovel and tail will determine how the ski handles in deeper snow. The side cut will determine turning ability. The side cut on the rear half will affect how the ski releases. The side cut itself will determine turning radius… the list goes on to include total surface area of the ski, which will determine how the ski supports skiers weight in powder or soft snow.

Then there’s rocker etc. You know all this of course @lilcliffy, but it does take time to explain and involves a few variables beyond the ski itself (binding location, pivot point, binding type, ski style, terrain etc.).
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mca80
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Re: What boots to buy??

Post by mca80 » Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:19 pm

Isn't a ski without any traction pattern easier to control downhill than one with? Maybe waxing for grip isn't ideal for your conditions, though.



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