Learning to turn with Gammes

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lilcliffy
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Re: Learning to turn with Gammes

Post by lilcliffy » Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:52 am

tkarhu wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:45 am
On the other hand, it feels that with the V12 sidecut (93-62-85) it is sometimes difficult to get an edge to bite. I have started to lean in turns with the plentier sidecut to find and edge. Does anybody have better tips?
How stiff is that V12 ski?
Sounds like you might be having some difficulty effectively pressuring the ski...
The Alfa Guard is a soft boot, with a soft sole. For example, I find it easier to assertively pressure a ski with my stiffer Alaska BC (and Guide BC) than my softer Guard BC.

As an example- my 188 Storetind is very stiff- I need to pressure it assetively and ski aggressively in order to carve with it- requiring stiff Telemark boots. (A 180cm ST- or even 172cm- might have been better for me).
Another example- my 180 Rabb is much easier to pressure than the Storetind- I can easily pressure it with my Alaska XP boot (but the Alaska XP boot has a much stiffer sole than the Guard BC...)

Anyhoo- a stiffer NNNBC boot might help- or you may find that the V12 ski needs to be skied aggressively in order to effectively engage the edges.

For interest- does the V12 have any rocker?

For reference I am 185lbs (84kg).
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

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tkarhu
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Re: Learning to turn with Gammes

Post by tkarhu » Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:10 pm

lilcliffy wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:52 am
tkarhu wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:45 am
On the other hand, it feels that with the V12 sidecut (93-62-85) it is sometimes difficult to get an edge to bite. I have started to lean in turns with the plentier sidecut to find and edge. Does anybody have better tips?
How stiff is that V12 ski?
Sounds like you might be having some difficulty effectively pressuring the ski...
The V12’s are really soft. It is a topptur ski, single camber or maybe 1.5 camber. In other words, a downhill ski, though usable even for pulk tours with wax (a Finnish ski expedition club skis it). What is actually the difference between 1 and 1.5 camber?

Maybe I would just do even worse with Gammes on the hard snow. Hard snow can be difficult to telemark ski I guess. At least I can skid parallel turns with the V12’s there, but just find it too boring :D I guess my next step is hard snow with Gammes, now that I could manage the snow with the easier V12 skis.
lilcliffy wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:52 am
As an example- my 188 Storetind is very stiff- I need to pressure it assetively and ski aggressively in order to carve with it- requiring stiff Telemark boots. (A 180cm ST- or even 172cm- might have been better for me).

Another example- my 180 Rabb is much easier to pressure than the Storetind

[…]

you may find that the V12 ski needs to be skied aggressively in order to effectively engage the edges.
This is great info! Thanks. I guess the V12 is an ancestor of Vetletind. Like Gammes, I feel the V12’s need a little more speed and aggressive skiing to work properly. The Alfa Guard boots should be good enough for that. I have been able to do some of that even with my earlier, 0.5 number oversize Guards.
lilcliffy wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:52 am
For interest- does the V12 have any rocker?
No nordic rocker! Well actually the V12 has a maybe 5 mm long nordic rocker like opening when pressed, but not enough to have any practical rocker effect. Stiffness profile looks like an old school downhill ski to me.



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lilcliffy
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Re: Learning to turn with Gammes

Post by lilcliffy » Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:22 pm

tkarhu wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:10 pm
The V12’s are really soft. It is a topptur ski, single camber or maybe 1.5 camber. In other words, a downhill ski, though usable even for pulk tours with wax (a Finnish ski expedition club skis it). What is actually the difference between 1 and 1.5 camber?
From my perspective "camber-and-a-half" (i.e. "1.5 camber") ski has a low profile double camber- intended for Nordic touring in steep terrain and/or deep snow. The resistance underfoot is not enough to produce a Classic wax/traction pocket that is relevant for Classic technique on a groomed surface- but, there is enough resistance to release the wax pocket when striding forwards.

A 1.5-camber ski that is "too long" (depends on ski stiffness) for a skier will behave just like a Classic track ski- requiring one to fully weight the ski to engage the wax/traction "pocket" underfoot- making the ski very challenging in steep terrain and/or deep snow. Therefore, a "camber-and-a-half" ski is a double-cambered ski that is "short" enough (depends on stiffness) not to have an "effective" Classic wax/traction pocket. By "effective", I am referring to Classic XC track technique. A 1.5 camber is "effective" in that it releases the wax/traction pocket when striding forwards- just not effective enough to keep the wax/traction pocket clear of the snow when not fully pressured.

A single-cambered ski (aka "alpine" camber) has no secondary camber resistance underfoot and has no effective wax/traction pocket. Single camber (along with degree of stiffness) produces effective edge, as well as the effective load bearing surface of the ski.
This is great info! Thanks. I guess the V12 is an ancestor of Vetletind. Like Gammes, I feel the V12’s need a little more speed and aggressive skiing to work properly. The Alfa Guard boots should be good enough for that. I have been able to do some of that even with my earlier, 0.5 number oversize Guards.
I was asking about the stiffness of the V12, wondering if they needed significant pressure to compress the camber and engage the effective edge....But, at 172cm (correct length?) + a soft flex, it shouldn't take much to pressure them...
Perhaps the issue is actually the opposite on hard/icy snow...
If the the V12 is very soft- both longitudinally and laterally- perhaps it is not stiff enough to carve on hardpack/icy snow...Perhaps it is bending and twisting when you try to carve with it on hardpack...
I have had exactly this experience with the Karhu/Madshus 62/68/78- these skis are very soft and round-flexing- they are great downhill on soft snow- but bend and twist all over the place on hardpack- totally unstable.
lilcliffy wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:52 am
For interest- does the V12 have any rocker?
No nordic rocker! Well actually the V12 has a maybe 5 mm long nordic rocker like opening when pressed, but not enough to have any practical rocker effect. Stiffness profile looks like an old school downhill ski to me.
Ok- so that ski has a much longer potential effective edge than its current descendent- the significantly rockered Falketind (97-62-86mm).
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tkarhu
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Re: Learning to turn with Gammes

Post by tkarhu » Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:44 am

lilcliffy wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:22 pm
At 172cm (correct length?) + a soft flex, it shouldn't take much to pressure them...
Perhaps the issue is actually the opposite on hard/icy snow...
If the the V12 is very soft- both longitudinally and laterally- perhaps it is not stiff enough to carve on hardpack/icy snow...Perhaps it is bending and twisting when you try to carve with it on hardpack...
I have had exactly this experience with the Karhu/Madshus 62/68/78- these skis are very soft and round-flexing- they are great downhill on soft snow- but bend and twist all over the place on hardpack- totally unstable.
This sounds like the Åsnes V12 skiing feels! Thanks. But, the V12 has a titanial layer in center part, so it is torsionally rigid, built like an alpine ski. Due to its torsional rigidity, the V12 is skiable on hard snow, but feels too soft longitudinally for real carving on the hard ground. Earlier owner was happy with the 172 cm V12’s as a beginner resort ski, being ~190 cm, probably due to the lateral rigidity.

The soft flex V12’s also side slip easily, in contrast to Gammes. And when the skis slide laterally, their edges are obviously not cutting into snow. I think that was also part of my experience yesterday.

Maybe the 2-3 inches of powder, that we had on top of hard snow, were also sliding with the skis. This probably made the skis side slip even more, too.

I felt I could overcome some of the excess softness issues by "skiing the skis as one ski". That meant proper rear ski pressuring for me.
V12
Telemark carving skis. Easy-to-drive telemark ski with good turn-in. The softness in the longitudinal direction does
it is very easy to drive, and the torsional rigidity means that it sits well on hard surfaces.
Low weight means that it is also well suited for top touring use. Can be driven well with leather boots.
Measurements: 93-62-85 Weight: 2850g (180 cm) Lengths: 172-180-188 Construction: Cap, wooden core, titanal, sintered sole
https://web.archive.org/web/20010202134 ... es-ski.no/
Above is the original Åsnes V12 product info from 2000. I was a bit worried, when buying "hourglass" skis for my leather boots and system bindings. Yet Åsnes recommended the V12 for leather boots, so I thought shortest length should be easy enough.

Thinking through all this, I see Gammes are amazing in their versatility! They feel easier to carve than a too soft carving ski, yet are really fast in tracks and directionally stable. Could their stiff double cambers and sidecut add to each other, too? Extra sidecut seems to keep a center ski further away from ground, when a ski is on edge. A stiff second camber also keeps the center ski higher, just from another angle.



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Inspiredcapers
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Re: Learning to turn with Gammes

Post by Inspiredcapers » Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:16 am

My Xplore and NNN-BC boots are both Fischer Transnordics. It’s the most comfortable boot I’ve ever worn (wider volume foot). I’ve been intending on skiing Gamme with NNN-BC one foot and Xplore the other but haven’t had the opportunity to do so yet.

This thread has me contemplating buying a lift pass next season to focus on Tele. The jaunts I take now don’t allow for extended practice…I think my current abilities would be better expressed as Telefake vs. Telemark.

Always good to have something to look forward to…



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tkarhu
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Re: Learning to turn with Gammes

Post by tkarhu » Sun Apr 02, 2023 1:06 pm

Inspiredcapers wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:16 am
My Xplore and NNN-BC boots are both Fischer Transnordics. It’s the most comfortable boot I’ve ever worn (wider volume foot). I’ve been intending on skiing Gamme with NNN-BC one foot and Xplore the other but haven’t had the opportunity to do so yet.
Would be great to hear about that experiment!
Inspiredcapers wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:16 am
This thread has me contemplating buying a lift pass next season to focus on Tele. The jaunts I take now don’t allow for extended practice…I think my current abilities would be better expressed as Telefake vs. Telemark.
In sea kayaking, I have practiced Greenland rolls even at a swimming hall. So, why not learn XCD at a resort :)

Last two weeks, I had the opportunity to ski Gammes in their natural habitat, the fjells. My XCD was mainly on BC fjell slopes, but on four days, I also skied a groomed (blue) piste down. In the photo below, there are tracks from three ski days, twelve laps down.

IMG_1713.jpg

On the slope, a wind packed layer in the middle of powder created a challenge. In such open landscape, it is difficult to find spots that would not have been touched by wind.

Sami languages have a few different words for crust. (Sami are the aboriginal people of the fjell ranges.) Many Sami crust words are characterized by what animal the type of crust can carry: a capercaillie, a reindeer, "steel crust"... The windpacked snow was hardish capercaillie crust, maybe :D

Best way to ski the snowpack was long, carved turns. When skidding, you would occasionally break through the wind packed layer, and end up on your butt. The carved turns meant higher speeds than normally, up to 35 km / h.

When skiing down a resort piste at another fjell in the same range, there was some loose powder on top of consolidated. It was quite a different game to ski the natural slope and the resort piste. On the resort snow, you could skid, side slip and lean in turns.

Before my last ski day on the above BC slope, moderate winds had created another windpacked layer, and shallow new powder was fallen on top of it. Then the slope had become a lot easier to ski. The structure had become stiffer, and it carried a skier consistently.

Yet the biggest challenge here was a total lack of contrasts, when there was even light snowfall. One day forecast showed cloudy, but it was light snowfall up there.

In the snowcloud, I fell a couple of times on my butt already at the flat top of the fjell, before starting to go down. I needed to look at my skis to estimate, whether I was sliding forwards, backwards or standing still (I was standing still).

0422C7B6-82F2-41E9-B5A3-F18DF93EDD81.jpeg


A fjell landscape is open tundra without trees. That view gives your brain no clues of depth, when visibility is low, which makes you lose your sense of balance. When there were even a few trees, skiing became easier.

P1090255 ++++.jpg

One day I met fresh wolverine tracks, with nail scratches in snow (photo above). The small valley had been in the lee of a fjell, which means snow deposition zone. I was there two days after a ten inches snowfall. I could hear whooshes and cracks, when skiing, and then see waves in snow, going away from me. I was happy to know that my 200 cm Gammes keep my away from any avalanche gradients.

P1090550 P1090267 ++++.jpg
P1090600 IMG_1592 ++++.jpg

On windward slopes, wind and snowfall had created beautiful shapes, sastrugis, in the snow. Yet the sastrugis are not be so nice for XCD.

P1090600 P1090273 +++.jpg

In the meanwhile, another side of the fjell had nice and mostly soft snow. In the photo above, there are 10 inches of dry powder on top of consolidated snow. There were some hardened spots already, but it was easy and beautiful to navigate your way down around the hardened spots. Here you could also lean in turns. No crust on the soft spots.

EDIT: A few notes on gear. I used 45 mm mohair x-skins for skinning this time. They gave a good balance between XC speed and climbing help, when I had quite long approaches of ~5 km in hilly landscape. For any longer and flatter approaches, I took off the skins and used Swix V30 blue wax.

With the 45 mm mohairs, I needed to herringbone at steepest slopes. Without many km's of approaches, nylon 45 mm's might be good, when climbing ~100 m altitude meters or more at a time.

My new, snug fit Alfa Guard Advances and red flexors worked alright both on flats and in the turns. For the first time, I got chafes at shins during the journey :D from pressing shins to boots.
Last edited by tkarhu on Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:12 pm, edited 13 times in total.



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lilcliffy
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Re: Learning to turn with Gammes

Post by lilcliffy » Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:02 pm

@tkarhu Those photos are spectacular! Wow. What I could do with that much space!!!!
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Cannatonic
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Re: Learning to turn with Gammes

Post by Cannatonic » Mon Apr 03, 2023 11:49 am

great post, fascinating stuff, I can see my self-evolved technique.....using XC stride to initiate the turn method. Really interesting to see it laid out in diagrams. You exaggerate the weighting and unweighting of an XC stride and time the unweighting with crossing your skis over the fall line. Pretty soon the inside leg is getting involved and you're dong tele turns.

I think wedge method would be better for people coming from the world of modern alpine ski. Older skiers and XC people are more accustomed to independent leg action while skiing.
"All wisdom is to be gained through suffering"
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Capercaillie
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Re: Learning to turn with Gammes

Post by Capercaillie » Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:27 pm

So talking about getting the inside leg involved:
tkarhu wrote:Parker writes that in a telemark turn, you stride with your feet only. For this part, a telemark stride is different from XC skiing and walking strides. You don't swing your arms, but keep them relaxed in front of you.
Both Steve Barnett in Cross-Country Downhill and Ned Gillette and John Dostal in Cross-Country Skiing emphasize driving the inside arm forward as if you were diagonal striding. I could not do a telemark turn until I started driving the inside arm forward. One obvious effect of driving the inside arm forward is that it helps you face the fall line during the middle and end of the turn / anticipation. I think another effect that is overlooked is that it helps initiate the turn. The momentum from the arm swing helps edge the inside ski at the start (counter-turning) while momentarily putting more weight on the front ski. Try driving the inside arm forward while standing barefoot in a telemark stance and feel what happens.

Why the contradictory advice between these experts? I think it has to do with equipment. On my Fischer TN66 with Alfa Guard boots I can weight and edge the inside ski without getting the arms involved (at least on corn). On my 50mm classic skis in NNN boots I really need to emphasize driving the inside arm and anticipatory torso rotation. Barnett, Gillette, and Dostal were all writing about cross-country. Parker's book was written later, with the intended audience skiing wider skis and stiffer boots.



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tkarhu
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Re: Learning to turn with Gammes

Post by tkarhu » Wed Apr 05, 2023 8:24 am

@Cannatonic @Capercaillie The stride & inside arm forward approaches make sense. I guess they may have same effect as keeping your look (chest) in direction fall line.

Trying it out on a carpet, like instructed, bringing the inside arm forward created a body rotation, and further a big toe / little toe kind of effect (fore / aft ski edging). It looks like we are running out of snow in my area now, but I will try these out on skis, when we will have good snow.

Also @lilcliffy thanks for the nice feedback. :)



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