Boot misfortune - can anyone help?

[randoskier]

Honestly, I don't think it would be worth the dollars spent to try to resole the OP's boots; and no adhesive that I am aware of will repair a detached sole.
Try to find a cheap pair of used 75mm boots that are intact, whether stitched or vulcanized soles, to use for now. Craigslist or Ebay might be worth a look, or a local second hand store.

[DG99]

[quote=

NTN "was"? It has replaced 75mm in the offer of the top three makers of downhill-oriented plastic telemark boots. All three of the leading manufacturers completely stopped making 75mm plastic boots, no more, zero models, gone goodbye, gone forever. NTN replaced 75 mm for these heavier set-ups and wide skis. I believe the same will happen within two years to the NNN BC binding and quite possibly to XCD 75mm boots (already you see less and less of the 75mm versions of the Alaska, etc.). Small manufacturers like Alpina, and my neighbor here in Veneto- Crispi, do not want to manage a gazillion SKUs and all the shoe sizes across three variants of the same model in their inventories and distribution networks- they will rally around the Xplore as a standard.

Not sure what "racialist" means exactly but there is nothing racist about that post- the Norwegians are not a race they are a nationality and a diverse one.

I can buy the Xplore for 108 EUR here in Europe, that is roughly $115 The price will continue to narrow vis a vis the NNN BC and that will kill off the latter as it has no other advantages vs. the Xplore. Price will drop sharply as the pay off the large R & D, engineering, tooling and launch costs.

That's my 2 (EUR) cents anyway! Bon ski!

That was looked into, a bad rumor, they didn’t actually stop making 75mm plastic boots. What actually happened is Scarpa stopped making the T1. Maybe Scott and Crispi scaled back too? NTN just took over the heavy/resort end for people buying all new gear. It seems NTN takes over the heavy end, and NNNBC and Xplore takes over the light end, but there’s a medium realm that is still left 75 mm.

Actually around here at least it seems Dynafit/Tech pretty much killed off tele, and NTN actually helped the demise, as an unpopular alternative driving people towards AT. Local shop gave up tele, just has alpine, AT and nordic backcountry! (No skate/classic groomer gear either.). Still telemarkers around the mountains though.

It does seem a bit mad that various XCD boots like the Transnordic and Alaska are made in three different versions, three different attachment points.

[lilcliffy]

My limted experience and exposure suggests to me that this boot breakdown is not a function of your special use case or severity of use @Didier Lafond

Over the last 25 years I seen MANY (probably a couple dozen personally) 75mm-NN-3pin duckbill boots fail in either and/or the two places you describe:

a) outsole cracking just behind the pin-line
b) toe separating from the duckbill

And most/vast majority of my experiences with this are with glued (as opposed to welted) soles.

There is a lot of stress on the duckbill with NN, and ironically, from my perspective I think that there is actually more stress on the duckbill from intense Nordic touring than there is from downhill-telemark skiing.

I don't think you are doing anything wrong.

All 75mm Nordic touring boots are eventually going to break in either of those locations- it is just a matter of time/use.
My limited experience is that welted boots are more durable- they are definitely "easier" to repair/resole- assuming that one has access to a suitable cobbler...

(Disclaimer- I am not trying to suggest that other Nordic boot-binding systems do not break/fail)

And finally- I don't see how either of those breaks can be "fixed" without a complete resole.

The couple of times it has happened to me, I have been grateful to make it home safely (a plug for always carrying the heel cables in your pack and/or carrying extra ski straps!)

[Capercaillie]

NTN replaced 75 mm for these heavier set-ups and wide skis.

TTN and TTS are still in the process of doing that. 75mm will almost certainly outlast NTN as it was designed by Rottefella. I think there is only one NTN boot model without tech toes (Scarpa TX Comp) available right now. Voile never even bothered making an NTN binding and went straight to TTS. The Bishop BMF is a 75mm binding with a different interchangeable toe clamp for NTN boots. So aside from Rottefella (whose NTN bindings do not have the best reputation), the only other NTN binding produced was the 22 Designs Outlaw. In hindsight NTN was an obviously bad design. In hindsight TTS seems obvious. Why did no one think to try TTS in the 1990s? Even TTN (Meidjo) predates TTS.

Not sure what "racialist" means exactly

Let me quote you again:

"Then you do not understand how Norwegian industry works… Sorry to disappoint you, the Xplore works perfectly."

If you think that the Xplore works perfectly (note the hyperbole) because it was designed by Norwegians, and you don't understand why that has anything to do with race, I'm not really sure how to explain it more clearly to you.

Small manufacturers like Alpina, and my neighbor here in Veneto- Crispi, do not want to manage a gazillion SKUs and all the shoe sizes across three variants of the same model in their inventories and distribution networks

A quick perusal of cripsi.it shows that Crispi makes about a hundred different models of leather boots. They have absolutely no problems managing new boot models. Any large established shoe company comes out with dozens of new models or model iterations annually. There is no difference between manufacturing regular leather boots and the majority of NNNBC/Xplore leather boots other than the outsole that gets glued on. Most leather 75mm/NNNBC/Xplore boot models do not have any plastic cuffs or buckles. This can actually make it more profitable to carry three outsole variations because you can sell the same boot uppers to three different markets (Fischer is doing exactly that with the Transnordic). Sales volumes are what determine what gets made. Crispi management (or any shoe company) would be ecstatic at the prospect of having enough customer demand to have "to manage a gazillion SKUs and all the shoe sizes across three variants of the same model in their inventories and distribution networks."

The price will continue to narrow vis a vis the NNN BC and that will kill off the latter as it has no other advantages vs. the Xplore.

Yes, everyone is just going to burn all the NNNBC skis they have right now and stop buying NNNBC boots (unlike people on this forum, most people do not ever switch bindings on their skis). Exactly like what happened to 75mm when NNN and NNNBC started being sold.

[randoskier]

NTN replaced 75 mm for these heavier set-ups and wide skis.

TTN and TTS are still in the process of doing that. 75mm will almost certainly outlast NTN as it was designed by Rottefella. I think there is only one NTN boot model without tech toes (Scarpa TX Comp) available right now. Voile never even bothered making an NTN binding and went straight to TTS. The Bishop BMF is a 75mm binding with a different interchangeable toe clamp for NTN boots. So aside from Rottefella (whose NTN bindings do not have the best reputation), the only other NTN binding produced was the 22 Designs Outlaw. In hindsight NTN was an obviously bad design. In hindsight TTS seems obvious. Why did no one think to try TTS in the 1990s? Even TTN (Meidjo) predates TTS.

Not sure what "racialist" means exactly

Let me quote you again:

"Then you do not understand how Norwegian industry works… Sorry to disappoint you, the Xplore works perfectly."

If you think that the Xplore works perfectly (note the hyperbole) because it was designed by Norwegians, and you don't understand why that has anything to do with race, I'm not really sure how to explain it more clearly to you.

Small manufacturers like Alpina, and my neighbor here in Veneto- Crispi, do not want to manage a gazillion SKUs and all the shoe sizes across three variants of the same model in their inventories and distribution networks

A quick perusal of cripsi.it shows that Crispi makes about a hundred different models of leather boots. They have absolutely no problems managing new boot models. Any large established shoe company comes out with dozens of new models or model iterations annually. There is no difference between manufacturing regular leather boots and the majority of NNNBC/Xplore leather boots other than the outsole that gets glued on. Most leather 75mm/NNNBC/Xplore boot models do not have any plastic cuffs or buckles. This can actually make it more profitable to carry three outsole variations because you can sell the same boot uppers to three different markets (Fischer is doing exactly that with the Transnordic). Sales volumes are what determine what gets made. Crispi management (or any shoe company) would be ecstatic at the prospect of having enough customer demand to have "to manage a gazillion SKUs and all the shoe sizes across three variants of the same model in their inventories and distribution networks."

The price will continue to narrow vis a vis the NNN BC and that will kill off the latter as it has no other advantages vs. the Xplore.

Yes, everyone is just going to burn all the NNNBC skis they have right now and stop buying NNNBC boots (unlike people on this forum, most people do not ever switch bindings on their skis). Exactly like what happened to 75mm when NNN and NNNBC started being sold.

As I said- Norway is a country not a race (though they win most of them), Norwegian is a nationality not a Race. Norwegian means people who live in Norway and are citizens of same, nothing to do with race at all (Norway is a diverse modern democracy). What I was referring to is Norwegian industry which is not prone to hyperbole, sugar-coated marketing fluff, and the proverbial quick buck (like some countries that I will not mention are). Nothing to do with design nor race, it a business culture issue.

Crispi and other boot makers have lots of boots (in the huge hiking and hunting boot categories yes), that does not mean they want to eternally manage multiple SKUs for a microscopic industry segment like XCD and support end-of-life or obsolete binding systems that become less profitable with each passing year.

Really?- "Yes, everyone is just going to burn all the NNNBC skis they have right now and stop buying NNNBC boots (unlike people on this forum, most people do not ever switch bindings on their skis)." You mean "stop buying" like the SNS Backcountry system adapters did? The manufacturers today offer a wide variety of SNS Backcountry boots for the people "who never switch bindings on their ski" right? Where are all these new SNS Backcountry boot models so people don't have "switch bindings on their ski"?

The Xplore works fine, and the launch was extremely successful. Yet many people become reactionary when confronted with technical change, but practical progress and engineering improvement triumphs in the end.
NNN BC is like DOS, Xplore is like Apple OS. I am sure somebody somewhere still uses DOS without a GUI (Yeh! Batch commands!).

There is a fine museum in Oxford, England that I highly recommend to you- it is called the Pitt-Rivers museum. General Augustus Henry Lane Fox Pitt Rivers (Monty Python could not make up a better name!) was an evolutionary anthropologist who applied a theory of evolution based on natural selection to objects and tools; much as Darwin did to animals. I hope they will add ski bindings to their extensive collection in the future. On the subject of museums- I heartily recommend the Scott Polar Institute in Cambridge which contains a fine museum concerning polar exploration.

[mca80]

So from 1253 to 1905 with the exception of a few months in 1814 there were no such people as Norwegians? @randoskier has a very modern, limited, and totally silly definition of race that is contrary to thousands and thousands of years of the term. By his logic Ukrainians as a people have only existed since 1991. Prior to that there were no such people.

P.S. I use linux, not always with a GUI.

[telerat]

Some harsh statements and opinions in this thread, but I hope people can also get some useful info from it. I'll give my experiences and opinions. I have always been on 75mm, both backcountry skiing and telemark, but changed to NTN with the original orange TX and Freeride, and can give my experiences with NTN, TX, Freeride and Meidjo in another thread. While I still have 75mm equipment it is less used nowadays. I live in Norway where we have a good selection of skiing equipment.

None of the systems are perfect, and all will continue to exist in the near future, but the selection of boots has and will continue to narrow for the less used systems. We already see that on 75mm plastic telemark boots, and also a bit on backcountry 75mm leather boots. For telemark it may also be because of less popularity and abundance of used 75mm plastic boots from people switching to AT gear. I think the trend will also continue for 75mm backcountry skiing boots, but I think NNN-BC may survive longer than 75mm since it seems more or less that the same boot upper can be used for both NNN-BC and Xplore. I don't think all 75mm or NNN-BC will be discontinued in the foreseeable future though. I expect the Xplore boot selection to continue to increase, but believe supply issues have delayed some models this year. The main issue I see holding Xplore back is the binding price, as well as a small premium on boots. Reliability also remains to be seen, but looks promising so far.

Regarding durability/reliability; I have torn the leather on the duckbill between the seams on a pair of Norwegian welted boots (Asolo Morgedal), when stopping abruptly in deep snow. The leather on both mine and my wife's newer pairs have also started to wear trough under the binding bale, so she bought new Alpine Alaska 75mm two years ago while I bought Alfa Skaget Xplore last year. Seeing the problems here scares me a bit and I'll check on her shoes regularly, but she is smaller and lighter so hopefully it goes well. The duckbill on smaller sizes is also shorter (due to less toe width) and forces generated is thus also less. Her Alaskas 75mm in size 37 are surprisingly heavy though.

[randoskier]

Regarding durability/reliability; I have torn the leather on the duckbill between the seams on a pair of Norwegian welted boots (Asolo Morgedal), when stopping abruptly in deep snow. The leather on both mine and my wife's newer pairs have also started to wear trough under the binding bale, so she bought new Alpine Alaska 75mm two years ago while I bought Alfa Skaget Xplore last year. Seeing the problems here scares me a bit and I'll check on her shoes regularly, but she is smaller and lighter so hopefully it goes well. The duckbill on smaller sizes is also shorter (due to less toe width) and forces generated is thus also less. Her Alaskas 75mm in size 37 are surprisingly heavy though.

My wife also has small feet 35.5. She switched to from 75mm Crispi Svartinsen, to the Alfa Skaget Xplore last year and has never been happier with a boot. They are really light. While skiing the Crispi 75mm she suffered a Lisfranc fracture (named after Napoleons surgeon who first diagnosed it in cavalry troops who fell off but their stirrup did not).

This happened in a white-out gully crash. I wonder if that fracture would have occurred with the Xplore binding in use instead of the 75mm (?)...probably, not sure. I doubt it would have happened with the NNN BC. She has neither three pins in her binding anymore, nor three pins in her foot anymore! A new shaped foot though!

[randoskier]

So from 1253 to 1905 with the exception of a few months in 1814 there were no such people as Norwegians? @randoskier has a very modern, limited, and totally silly definition of race that is contrary to thousands and thousands of years of the term. By his logic Ukrainians as a people have only existed since 1991. Prior to that there were no such people.

P.S. I use linux, not always with a GUI.

My closest Norwegian friend is Sami. He is from the Norwegian race? Really?

You are right that I use a modern definition of race, I do not use the 1930s-1940s German definition of race. Norwegian is an ethnicity not a race in one meaning, and a nationality in its other, it is certainly not a race and it never has been.

Re: Unix ...COOL!

[TallGrass]

Honestly, I don't think it would be worth the dollars spent to try to resole the OP's boots; and no adhesive that I am aware of will repair a detached sole.

If the sole was glued on, use the glue they did to manufacture it. It will need a clean, rough up, clean, and good application+clamping. If things are not aligned per factory, there's the chance it won't fit and or function the same.

@Didier Lafond, which of the three types is yours, and if applicable, which sub-type?

Glue is 1 of 3 methods used I know of:
1. Sewn on, durable, re-sole-able, time-tested, harder to find places that do it well
2. Glue, fast, easy, cheap, not as durable but can be resoled, most "cobblers" or shoe repair places will use Barge Glue as it's good-enough for dress shoes or light duty and disposable stuff (running shoes)
2b. Glue with top stitch, thing of a sole with a high lip making a 'cup' for the upper last to sit in, glued in, the stitched around the top edge (found in some hiking boots)
3. Direct Molded Sole ("DMS" direct molded sole), ala "jungle boots" where the last (upper boot) is put in the mold and the sole is "cast" with it in place, VERY durable, NOT re-sole-able per factory, but sewing or gluing something on is a possibility, though usually the rest of the boot is clapped out by that point, the sole will fracture in half and the last itself tear before the sole becomes detached (IME)

More about DMS
https://www.mcraefootwear.com/about
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD0666756.pdf

More-on sewn-on's:
It's also good to know about the different methods for sewing on soles such as the common ones: Blake, Goodyear, Norwegian. Various reasons to choose one or the other such as profile slimness vs ease of re-sole, among others. Note how the lower machine piece is inside the shoe for one, and outside on the edge for the other.


"Stitchdown" is among the oldest, along perimeter outside


Blake, from inside, requires special machine


Blake + Rapid, in and out


Goodyear, note cork bed, outer stitch can be potentially "repaired" by hand


Norwegian/Storm, note sideways stitching



Your common, cheap, fast "Glue" on method, "Stitches??? We don't need no stinkin' stitches!"


Glue on with Stitch around the top, more durable and seen on better quality glue-on boots for belt-and-suspenders approach.



And then there are fakes, like glued-on soles with imitation "threads" visible on the top edge of the sole to appear as if it were sewn on.

There is no way to fix that other than a complete resole. If there is some glue that bonds properly and is strong enough, what tends to happen is that the rubber immediately next to the bond starts tearing off.

Then you do not understand how Norwegian industry works.

I don't find this racialist explanation

Agree about good glue on bad rubber.
Disagree about mis-characterizing differences based on nationality and or culture as being something else.

Have you looked in to Cold Vulcanizing Fluid? Mainly used for innertube / tire repair with a patch.

Krummholz is on the right track if you want to "repair" broken rubber. You can't just glue it because it undergoes a transformation "vulcanizing" (what was it, sulfur first used to make natural rubber tires back in the day) which you'd have to undo-redo. RTV (room temp vulcanizing) is similar, but it has no bond strength. Good CVF on GOOD rubber will work great for patches, but that's a different kind of stress (stretching, broad area over a small defect) than what the underside of a sole sees (flexing, small repair over a broad defect) and inner tubes are much more pliable than boot soles, the latter needing to be durable.

That said, you can't break what's broke so I would experiment with repairs. I would test in just a small corner of the crack as some glues don't work, but mess it up enough not to let you try something else. Also NOT STAKE YOUR LIFE on these boots, that is, use them only where you can walk to safety if/when they fail.

It also looks on the 1st post photo that an inner lip is torn, perhaps a waterproofing design, which if what I'm imagining, would be very, very, very hard to effect a sound and waterproof DIY repair due to last/insole/outsole layering ala above illustrations, like trying to repair in-situ a middle leaf spring in a multi-leaf assembly.

If the rubber is bad (old, dry) it is like sandblasting the rust off a Model T from a farm: once the rust is removed, there'll be nothing left. It is possible to soften dry rubber using 50/50 wintergreen oil (careful, it has hazards) and alcohol, immersed for a day or more, however, being able to seal it off from the rest of the boot to avoid damaging it as well as to keep it from flashing off would be a pain. I've used W+A to soften hardened N.O.S. rubber bits which worked well, whereas old UV-baked stuff just would crumble.