How Do I Turn?

[lowangle al]

DOUBLE CAMBER SKIS ARE THE MAJOR OBSTACLE IN MOVING FROM XC TO XCD. It can be done with a much larger commitment in time, energy, and risk of injury.

I do somewhat agree. On the other hand, good side of learning with Gammes is that you need to learn it right from the start. Yes it does take time and energy, but so does learning away bad habits.

It doesn't have to take 30 years to learn. With the right gear, good instruction and a season pass you could figure it out in a season.

For the risk of injury... A season pass sounds frightening! With double camber skis, a small kids' piste would be relevant at a downhill ski center. Maybe after learning more at bunny hills and in the backcountry where nobody is watching, I would feel comfortable at green or blue pistes among people.

For learning turns, Gammes are still a lot easier than most double camber skis. Gammes have 14 mm of sidecut and steel edges, which help a lot. Not to forget nordic rocker, that @fisheater mentioned.

But what you learn with Gammes, you can somewhat use with XC skis.



Video says there are three main XC competition downhill techniques:

• snowploughing

• skidded parallel turn

• step turn

The skidded parallel turn seems to use same tricks as a double camber telemark turn: pressuring and edging ski rear ends. In XC downhill with skate skis, I have started to do that. It is nicer to go downhill in a skate lane because there is always more snow than down in the tracks. If there is some crap in your way, you can go around it better without tracks. It just feels good to have more control with your skis, too. Before I started to learn telemark, I always just ran in tracks and hoped the best.

Sure Gammes are not a downhill ski for all conditions. I go downhill with them only in good conditions, and in easy places. When snow is hard or heavy, I go skate skiing, nordic ice skating, or classic skiing. Or stay indoors

My thoughts on the point about learning "right" from the start on Gammes as opposed to a turnier ski. I don't think you are more likely to develop bad habits on a single camber ski than you would on the Gamme. In fact I think the opposite might be more common. I will agree that if you learn on single camber skis you may need to learn an extra trick or two to get a dbl camber ski to turn.

I'm sure that the sidecut and rocker make the Gamme easier to turn, that's why it's there. But I would think that on hardpack you still need to squash down that underfoot camber to carve.

For my statement about learning in one season at the resort, I was thinking it would be best on heavier telemark gear not light xc oriented stuff.

One point about that video. Those xc step turns are nothing like a telemark step turn, they are not even similar.

[tkarhu]

One point about that video. Those xc step turns are nothing like a telemark step turn, they are not even similar.

Oh good to know. I thought it would be same thing.

What is a telemark step turn then? First a small step, then move to telemark?

[Stephen]

EDIT: I see a couple of posts came in while I was writing this.

@tkarhu, really great comments.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying.
But, I also somewhat disagree with some of what you are saying in relation to what @lowangle al is saying.

There are many many variables in the totality of skiing.
How the different skis bend, camber, rocker, stiffness, torsional stiffness, the characteristics of the boots, the bindings, skier ability and conditioning, skier psychology, snow conditions, slope angle, technique, and much more.

And each combination of ALL of those things require and result in different things from the skier.

So, maybe on a spectrum, there could be something like a classic XC race ski setup on one end and full telemark race setup for a slalom course on the other end. And then all the minor increments of setups that fall in between these two.

I’m just trying to illustrate a broad range to consider.
So, learning to turn on the Gamme requires learning to turn on the Gamme.
What makes Gamme turn? Then do that.

And, how do high-speed race skis carve? And learn how to do that.

And the skills learned in one will carry over to the other to some degree, but not 1 for 1.

I think all @lowangle al is saying is that there is an option to shorten the general learning curve for skiing telemark by selecting the type of skis he recommends.

In 2020/21 I started skiing XC again after a long absence. I had to unlearn things that worked for 220cm stiff wood skis, like lots of front ski weight. Then last year, because of personal situation, switched to resort skiing on Alpine skis, NTN bindings and plastic boots.

Did some of the XC carry across to resort skiing, yes, but really a very different discipline.

This year, I plan to be doing a combination of both.
Season pass I can use for skiing any of the skis I have: Gamme, FTX, Objective, Rustler 10, etc. *

I’m going to be really interested to see what carries over from one type of skiing to the other (resort to backcountry).
The season pass will get me to the top of the mountain, which opens up a lot of out-of-bounds territory for BC skiing.

*
Maybe I’m one of those people referred to here:

There are folks who spend their retirement savings in search of the right ski. They swap stuff out so often that they never know, or master, that which their skis are capable. Gear whores and kooks.

[lowangle al]

One point about that video. Those xc step turns are nothing like a telemark step turn, they are not even similar.

Oh good to know. I thought it would be same thing.

What is a telemark step turn then? First a small step, then move to telemark?

One way to do a tele step turn is to step to the side with your new lead ski, planting it in the new direction of travel. Then you pick up the inside ski and plant it next to the lead ski.

I was taught a little different. Instead of stepping the new lead ski to the side, I step down the hill, planting it in front of my new uphill ski in the new direction of travel. You can either pick the uphill ski up and place it next to the lead ski or sink weight on it to turn it to the new direction. I hope that helps.

[GrimSurfer]

Maybe I’m one of those people referred to here:

There are folks who spend their retirement savings in search of the right ski. They swap stuff out so often that they never know, or master, that which their skis are capable. Gear whores and kooks.

That would require me to be a clairvoyant.

[tkarhu]

So, maybe on a spectrum, there could be something like a classic XC race ski setup on one end and full telemark race setup for a slalom course on the other end. And then all the minor increments of setups that fall in between these two.

I’m just trying to illustrate a broad range to consider.
So, learning to turn on the Gamme requires learning to turn on the Gamme.
What makes Gamme turn? Then do that.

And, how do high-speed race skis carve? And learn how to do that.

And the skills learned in one will carry over to the other to some degree, but not 1 for 1.

I think all @lowangle al is saying is that there is an option to shorten the general learning curve for skiing telemark by selecting the type of skis he recommends.

In 2020/21 I started skiing XC again after a long absence. I had to unlearn things that worked for 220cm stiff wood skis, like lots of front ski weight. Then last year, because of personal situation, switched to resort skiing on Alpine skis, NTN bindings and plastic boots.

Did some of the XC carry across to resort skiing, yes, but really a very different discipline.

This year, I plan to be doing a combination of both.
Season pass I can use for skiing any of the skis I have: Gamme, FTX, Objective, Rustler 10, etc.

I’m going to be really interested to see what carries over from one type of skiing to the other (resort to backcountry).
The season pass will get me to the top of the mountain, which opens up a lot of out-of-bounds territory for BC skiing.

@Stephen Would be great to hear about your experiences about skiing technique in different conditions! When the season goes on. With some relatives, there has been talk about a skiing trip to the Alps. It could be fun to rent a NTN / modern telemark set there.

For now, as a father of Kindergarten age kids, nearby small hills are what I have at hand in everyday XCD. NTN or rando skis would feel overkill here. Further, I will do also one week trips to Lapland fells at some point again, so I select my gear with that in mind, too.

[wabene]

[lowangle al]

For now, as a father of Kindergarten age kids, nearby small hills are what I have at hand in everyday XCD. NTN or rando skis would feel overkill here. Further, I will do also one week trips to Lapland fells at some point again, so I select my gear with that in mind, too.

Nothing wrong with teaching yourself on small hills near home. That was where I learned when my kid played on 2 to 3 hockey teams and only I had short windows to get out. You will also need to do a lot of laps. For my first 7 or 8 years in Ak. my tours were distance oriented. I could only get my wife to do a couple laps on the steeper sections because she wasn't into it, so I didn't get enough practice. It wasn't until I had the time to get out by myself and do a lot of laps before I figured it out.

The good thing about doing laps is that you can control some of the variables, like slope angle and conditions. This lets you concentrate on technique and how your gear works.

If you do get to rent some heavy tele gear be prepared to have to relearn how to get centered. It takes time to learn how to get your weight on the rear ski when moving to a heavy stiff boot. This is one reason I like the T4. They have about the same ROM as a stiff xcd boot so no relearning is needed. They have a natural feel, not only for skiing but for walking. When walking in T4s, they feel more like a regular hiking boot than a ski boot.

[randoskier]

How do I turn my skis without my heel locked down?

I use a hope a turn, I hope they turn and sometimes they do.

[FourthCoast]

How do I turn my skis without my heel locked down?

I use a hope a turn, I hope they turn and sometimes they do.

Finally. A genuine, serious and helpful answer, seven weeks after my first post. Thank you, @randoskier !