How Do I Turn?

[tkarhu]

A Swedish Telemark Legend from the 90s taught me to ski with most of the weight on the rear ski (In certain conditions) using the front ski as a hover craft pushing on the heel of the front ski to raise the tip.

Point 4) is actually part of why the double camber powder trick works, I guess. When you have less snow on top of a leading ski, it leads you to a more helpful place that pointing its tip towards the bottom of a snowpack.

I can’t speak authoritatively on this, but I think there are a few key points here:

In certain conditions

The trick is, not ALL conditions, and figuring out where this is helpful.

In 20-40 cm cold snow, my Gammes have started to turn only, when I have pressured the inner rear edge of my front ski. I have mostly practiced in 20-40 cm powder. In such snow, you can have even all weight on the front ski inner rear edge, and a turn works out well on Gammes. Also, these exercises have been where there is enough space for a wide turn.

However, when I have started to practice on harder ground, I have felt out of control with that technique. There the inner rear edge pressuring seems to have limited use. More continuous edging of both skis has seemed necessary for speed control. For such settings, I have started to learn pressuring the ball of foot on rear ski, plus edging. That has brought a feeling of control back also on hard ground. All practice has been on ~10-15 degrees slopes.

[lowangle al]

The reason your skis don’t work on hard pack is because the edges in the middle of the ski don’t have good contact with the snow. You are able to get the edge of your tails down though.

When I skied dc skis I started the turn with a hard step down the hill in front of my other ski tip to set the edge in the new direction. Then my weight would shift to the rear ski to finish the turn.

I figured that out on my own. You have to do whatever you need to to get enough weight on a ski to compress the camber and carve a turn.

[fisheater]

Point 4) is actually part of why the double camber powder trick works, I guess. When you have less snow on top of a leading ski, it leads you to a more helpful place that pointing its tip towards the bottom of a snowpack.

I can’t speak authoritatively on this, but I think there are a few key points here:

In certain conditions

The trick is, not ALL conditions, and figuring out where this is helpful.

In 20-40 cm cold snow, my Gammes have started to turn only, when I have pressured the inner rear edge of my front ski. I have mostly practiced in 20-40 cm powder. In such snow, you can have even all weight on the front ski inner rear edge, and a turn works out well on Gammes. Also, these exercises have been where there is enough space for a wide turn.

However, when I have started to practice on harder ground, I have felt out of control with that technique. There the inner rear edge pressuring seems to have limited use. More continuous edging of both skis has seemed necessary for speed control. For such settings, I have started to learn pressuring the ball of foot on rear ski, plus edging. That has brought a feeling of control back also on hard ground. All practice has been on ~10-15 degrees slopes.

Tkarhu,
I have a Gamme. It is very stiff underfoot, that’s why it goes fast! Now when I have a little fluff on top of hardpack, and it doesn’t take much, I can get that rocker to bend the front of the outside or front ski. Now that I have that outside ski turning if I use a little flat ski rotation technique, once that inside or back ski is pointing where it should, I can weight it and ride it around in a Telemark turn.
Now is it a true Telemark? My answer is kind of. What it is, is a full fledged knee drop with pressuring of the little toe side on the inside or uphill ski. For me that is as Telemark as it gets on a Gamme. I bet it would look pretty darned Telemark in a video.
The bottom line is a ski doesn’t turn if it doesn’t bend. That Gamme isn’t made to bend with only half your weight pressuring it. However if I can bend the front ski utilizing the rocker, then bend the back ski dropping the knee hard. On a Gamme? Heck yeah, that’s a Telemark!

[lowangle al]

I can’t speak authoritatively on this, but I think there are a few key points here:


The trick is, not ALL conditions, and figuring out where this is helpful.

In 20-40 cm cold snow, my Gammes have started to turn only, when I have pressured the inner rear edge of my front ski. I have mostly practiced in 20-40 cm powder. In such snow, you can have even all weight on the front ski inner rear edge, and a turn works out well on Gammes. Also, these exercises have been where there is enough space for a wide turn.

However, when I have started to practice on harder ground, I have felt out of control with that technique. There the inner rear edge pressuring seems to have limited use. More continuous edging of both skis has seemed necessary for speed control. For such settings, I have started to learn pressuring the ball of foot on rear ski, plus edging. That has brought a feeling of control back also on hard ground. All practice has been on ~10-15 degrees slopes.

Tkarhu,
I have a Gamme. It is very stiff underfoot, that’s why it goes fast! Now when I have a little fluff on top of hardpack, and it doesn’t take much, I can get that rocker to bend the front of the outside or front ski. Now that I have that outside ski turning if I use a little flat ski rotation technique, once that inside or back ski is pointing where it should, I can weight it and ride it around in a Telemark turn.
Now is it a true Telemark? My answer is kind of. What it is, is a full fledged knee drop with pressuring of the little toe side on the inside or uphill ski. For me that is as Telemark as it gets on a Gamme. I bet it would look pretty darned Telemark in a video.
The bottom line is a ski doesn’t turn if it doesn’t bend. That Gamme isn’t made to bend with only half your weight pressuring it. However if I can bend the front ski utilizing the rocker, then bend the back ski dropping the knee hard. On a Gamme? Heck yeah, that’s a Telemark!

That sounds like what I described earlier about starting the turn with the lead ski weighted and ending it with the rear ski weighted. This is one way to get enough weight on each ski to carve it. Otherwise, you can weight both skis at the same time with extreme weighting. It takes more skill and physical energy and it's not as forgiving if things don't go right.

There is a lot more that needs to happen to turn a dbl camber ski compared to single camber.

DOUBLE CAMBER SKIS ARE THE MAJOR OBSTACLE IN MOVING FROM XC TO XCD. It can be done with a much larger commitment in time, energy, and risk of injury.

[GrimSurfer]

DOUBLE CAMBER SKIS ARE THE MAJOR OBSTACLE IN MOVING FROM XC TO XCD. It can be done with a much larger commitment in time, energy, and risk of injury.

^^ This ^^

Pure gold.

[tkarhu]

The reason your skis don’t work on hard pack is because the edges in the middle of the ski don’t have good contact with the snow. You are able to get the edge of your tails down though.

Great point again! I guess the front ski rear edging trick works also partly because putting pressure on one ski gives enough force to flex a double camber ski (assumption #5). Powder re-shapes, fills ski cambers, and for that reason, double cambers are easier in powder than on hard pack. Like lowangleal already wrote?

Gammes are somewhat different from old school double camber skis, I think, because Gammes have a modern, long nordic rocker. Would you call it early riser in alpine skis? Like fisheater wrote:

it doesn’t take much, I can get that rocker to bend the front of the outside or front ski
[...]
The bottom line is a ski doesn’t turn if it doesn’t bend. That Gamme isn’t made to bend with only half your weight pressuring it. However if I can bend the front ski utilizing the rocker, then bend the back ski dropping the knee hard.

I mostly do the same, but do not drop my rear knee that much. I ski more from a tall stance. Rear toe pressuring feels easier that way on my NNN-BC's and Alfa Guards.

When I started last winter with telemark turns, I followed Parker book instructions. Parker actually tells to steer with your front ski — I guess the edging trick was just my interpretation of his instructions (image above).

DOUBLE CAMBER SKIS ARE THE MAJOR OBSTACLE IN MOVING FROM XC TO XCD. It can be done with a much larger commitment in time, energy, and risk of injury.

Pure gold.

Yes, knee injuries seem possible at least. On the other hand, I have thought of my long and skinny skis as a life insurance because they keep me away from any avalanche risk gradients

[fisheater]

DOUBLE CAMBER SKIS ARE THE MAJOR OBSTACLE IN MOVING FROM XC TO XCD. It can be done with a much larger commitment in time, energy, and risk of injury.

^^ This ^^

Pure gold.

I agree @lowangle al I also didn’t learn to Telemark on double camber skis or leather boots. However in my close to home terrain, except when I have deeper snow, a double camber ski is the way to enjoy my thin snow cover and rolling terrain.
So I am a big fan of my double camber metal edged Gamme. When conditions are right, I can make Telemark turns, but usually they are stem Christy Telemarks or step turns.
Maybe I’m a purveyor of mis-information, if I have I apologize. Yes I have talked about the joy of pulling Telemark turns on my Gamme, but it’s not the rule!
The truth is, if you want to learn the Telemark turn it will be much easier the a single camber ski. A ski with side cut as most skis have today is best. A cable binding that provides lateral stability will be very helpful. A plastic boot provides the same, however the plastic boot very much benefits from the cable to help compress the plastic boot bellows and keep the ball of the foot on the rear ski.
As long as I’m talking about turning, while in the learning process the focus is on carving, the controlled skid is an important tool in the tool box.
One last little trick that I still play around with all the time, the back foot hockey stop. In two footed Telemark turn, you need a good back foot. Back footed hockey stops are a good way to work on that back foot feel.
Thanks to the guys that put in the effort to provide the good information on this thread. I really meant to sit on the sidelines, and I’m heading back to those sidelines.

[mca80]

@fisheater what's a backfoot hockey stop? Any different than just a hockey stop?

Went ice skating this morning first time this winter. Paid attention to turning. When not doing crossover but just "carving," the outside skate gets on inner edge and guides the turn while that leg is slightly flexed at the knee and forward from the ankle with pressure throughout the skate especially at the heel. Similar process in lead ski for telemark turn?

[fisheater]

@mca80 a back foot hockey stop is a hockey stop in which you pressure the back foot to stop. It's not something done in powder.

[mca80]

@mca80 a back foot hockey stop is a hockey stop in which you pressure the back foot to stop. It's not something done in powder.

Hm. I figured you pressured both feet in such a stop, no? Will have to pay attention next time I do it.