This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips / Telemark Francais Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web since 1998. East, West, North, South, Canada, US or Europe, Backcountry or not.
This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips / Telemark Francais Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web since 1998. East, West, North, South, Canada, US or Europe, Backcountry or not.
This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web. We have fun here, come on in and be a part of it.
The front of the cable is not at the boots / bindings pivot point. Meaning the springs in the cable extend when raising the heel.
That is a really important point. It's not immediately apparent when comparing 75mm telemark bindings and 1930s cable bindings, for example. I have never used 75mm bindings or cables (this thread makes me want to), but it sounds like having the second pivot point of the cable set further back also helps keep the ball of the foot pressed down into the ski on the rear leg in the telemark position? There is a huge tightening effect in the muscles running over the bottom of the foot and the calf/achilles tendon when the ball of the foot is pressed down well. That makes the ankle much more rigid, and the tight muscles of the lower leg act as a suspension.
Even if they are not planning a cable option for Xplore, Rottefella should at least be making Xplore soles with heel ledges for semi-automatic crampons. Then you could add cables with a riser plate that has protruding cable attachment points.
@GrimSurfer Your explanations and that diagram you posted about gravity and friction are completely irrelevant. Pressuring the skis has nothing to do with friction or gravity. You have two skis and you exert force on them by opposing your two legs against each other and against the rest of your body. You can easily tell the effect by putting your skis on in the living room.
Your argument is the same as trying to claim that bicycles cannot work because any pressure you apply to the pedals is not a real force.
On a bicycle, you’re force against the pedals is that of gravity. When your muscular force exceeds your mass, you cannot apply any further force unless you have pedal straps or clip ins. Then it is counterforce.
“Pressuring the skis has nothing to do with friction or gravity.” Man, that’s a keeper. Seriously, dude. I have to think you’re saying this for effect. Made me laugh out loud.
The level of science literacy appears to be quite low these days. Maybe when the mulled wine is finished and everyone’s hangover clears, things will get better.
We dreamed of riding waves of air, water, snow, and energy for centuries. When the conditions were right, the things we needed to achieve this came into being. Every idea man has ever had up to that point about time and space were changed. And it keeps on changing whenever we dream. Bio mechanical jazz, man.
Question→ forgive me- I cannot remember- are you using the stiffer downhill flexor?
Gareth
I do have the stiff flexor and the flat plate. I carry the flat plate and the stiff flexor in my pack and they are easy enough to put on and take off. I prefer skiing the Traverse 78 and the S-Bound 98 with the standard flexor when paired with the Alfa Vista boot. It feels more neutral to me and that is what I prefer for the type of terrain that I use that combo for. I like the combo of the Alfa Free and Voile Objective with the hard flexor, but I probably ski that combo more with the standard flexor than the hard flexor, mostly because I'm a bit lazy and I seem to have ample control with the standard flexor.
When your muscular force exceeds your mass, you cannot apply any further force unless you have pedal straps or clip ins. Then it is counterforce.
You can easily apply counterforce by using your torso and arm muscles and pulling on the handlebars. In fact, you can get a lot more counterforce this way than through pedal attachment.
Gravity has nothing to do with how you use your limbs. You can manipulate and position your skis while you are in free fall.
You really sound like a know-it-all who read about Newton's third law but has no idea how to apply it in a model.
Grimsurfer, since you can make a freebody diagram, try to make one where the heel is raised with a cable binding (for the simplicity of reading the diagram, you can exaggerate the distance from the bending point of the duckbill to the attachment point of the cable. The principle will stay the same, even though the lever length is exaggerated). You should be able to see, how the spring force is generating torque around the horizontal (and perpendicular to the length of the ski) axis of the boot/binding contact point.
The ski can be on flat surface, we do not need any movement or slope to see how the snow (or living room carpet, for that matter) needs to provide a counterforce to the tip of the ski (and with the tip I mean the ski in front oft he binding) for the ski to stay level, so that the resulting torque is similar but opposite than the spring-induced torque.
And, like already mentioned, you can pedal a bike with a larger force acting on the pedal than the weight of the rider, and it has nothing to do with the feet being strapped or clipped in to the pedals. You just need a something to push against, like the handlebars on regular bike (when standing up), or the backrest of a recumbent.
When your muscular force exceeds your mass, you cannot apply any further force unless you have pedal straps or clip ins. Then it is counterforce.
You can easily apply counterforce by using your torso and arm muscles and pulling on the handlebars. In fact, you can get a lot more counterforce this way than through pedal attachment.
Gravity has nothing to do with how you use your limbs. You can manipulate and position your skis while you are in free fall.
You really sound like a know-it-all who read about Newton's third law but has no idea how to apply it in a model.
You are trying to argue your way to justify your stupid position. And yes, it is a stupid position.
I provided a link to a book written for ski instructors, by a ski instructor holding a doctorate in physics. The diagram was from that book.
Your response? Sweial straw man arguments. There is a term for this… militant stupidity.
So keep skiing with your 1920s rat trap binding under the delusion that the later introduced cable system is doing something more than acting as a control element for a class II lever (your foot), whose sole purpose is to shift weight back and forth and side to side across a ski. (Truth is it’s not that bad a binding but isn’t the magical force generating device you’ve deluded yourself into believing it is.)
Stay away from people who would tell you otherwise and threaten the bubble you’ve created to justify the circle of confusion feeding serial purchases of equipment.
We dreamed of riding waves of air, water, snow, and energy for centuries. When the conditions were right, the things we needed to achieve this came into being. Every idea man has ever had up to that point about time and space were changed. And it keeps on changing whenever we dream. Bio mechanical jazz, man.
Here’s a way to confirm Newton’s Third LAW of motion…
Remove a NN/3 Pin binding from a ski. Lock the bail onto a ski boot duckbill. Hook on cables and place them over the heel of the boot. Put the boot down on a flat surface.
Does the boot move forward on its own? Of course not. That would be impossible.
The duckbill is locked to the 3 pin binding. The force exerted by the cables on the back of the boot are equal and opposite to the forces pushing from the other direction through the duckbill.
None of this is transmitting force in one direction. It might be compressing the sole of the boot somewhat. But that compression is happening in both directions. They cancel out.
There are likely all kinds of BS artistes selling higher tension cables, claiming these are improving drive. What they’re actually doing is placing greater force on the boot to overcome skier limitations in foot control. They don’t impart any force on the ski. Only the skier can do that.
This is a skier aid which makes up for limitations in ankle control. It is not a device that transmits force in any single direction. Whatever forces are imparted on the boot, and only the boot, are equal and opposite.
Only now I read this older response. There must be a misunderstanding somewhere, I think nobody suggested that the cables do drive the skis forward? But, as many have suggested, the cables generate pressure on the ski tip, when the springs are stretched by lifting the heel.
@GrimSurfer pal, you have been on this forum for barely 3 weeks and have already posted 347 times. For example one of the most venerable posters on this site has been here for over 3 years and you have already blown past him in number of posts. Does this tell you anything? Do you think it is prudent to insert yourself into every conversation? Let alone argue petty and sometimes irrelevant points with everyone? Give it a rest.
@GrimSurfer pal, you have been on this forum for barely 3 weeks and have already posted 347 times. For example one of the most venerable posters on this site has been here for over 3 years and you have already blown past him in number of posts. Does this tell you anything? Do you think it is prudent to insert yourself into every conversation? Let alone argue petty and sometimes irrelevant points with everyone? Give it a rest.
I’m waiting for snow and like skiing. What can I say?
Please point me to the link that sets a post limit… or a social hierarchy diagram… or the book of orthodoxy one must follow when talking about bindings and wax.
Thx, bye.
We dreamed of riding waves of air, water, snow, and energy for centuries. When the conditions were right, the things we needed to achieve this came into being. Every idea man has ever had up to that point about time and space were changed. And it keeps on changing whenever we dream. Bio mechanical jazz, man.
Here’s a way to confirm Newton’s Third LAW of motion…
Remove a NN/3 Pin binding from a ski. Lock the bail onto a ski boot duckbill. Hook on cables and place them over the heel of the boot. Put the boot down on a flat surface.
Does the boot move forward on its own? Of course not. That would be impossible.
The duckbill is locked to the 3 pin binding. The force exerted by the cables on the back of the boot are equal and opposite to the forces pushing from the other direction through the duckbill.
None of this is transmitting force in one direction. It might be compressing the sole of the boot somewhat. But that compression is happening in both directions. They cancel out.
There are likely all kinds of BS artistes selling higher tension cables, claiming these are improving drive. What they’re actually doing is placing greater force on the boot to overcome skier limitations in foot control. They don’t impart any force on the ski. Only the skier can do that.
This is a skier aid which makes up for limitations in ankle control. It is not a device that transmits force in any single direction. Whatever forces are imparted on the boot, and only the boot, are equal and opposite.
Only now I read this older response. There must be a misunderstanding somewhere, I think nobody suggested that the cables do drive the skis forward? But, as many have suggested, the cables generate pressure on the ski tip, when the springs are stretched by lifting the heel.
Great recap.
Bindings facilitate the shifting of weight. They don’t actually shift weight themselves. The skier does that.
A binding element attached to itself cannot generate pressure. The forces act in equal and opposite directions, as the laws of motion require.
Binding elements can very accurately position the boot relative to the ski. This allows the skier to transfer weight more effectively.
We dreamed of riding waves of air, water, snow, and energy for centuries. When the conditions were right, the things we needed to achieve this came into being. Every idea man has ever had up to that point about time and space were changed. And it keeps on changing whenever we dream. Bio mechanical jazz, man.
