Are the narrow nordic backcountry skis miserable on tracks?

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wabene
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Re: Are the narrow nordic backcountry skis miserable on tracks?

Post by wabene » Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:28 am

Transplantskier wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:08 am
I ski the Fjelltech M44 as my "track ski" and I absolutely love it. It performs well in and out of the track, and does surprisingly well in fresh snow as well. I think those extra few millimeters of narrowness between it and the M50 drastically improve the track performance of the M44.

Interesting bonus: Last year I acquired a true track ski on clearance, the Atomic Pro C2 Skintec (which is pretty cheap and you see a lot of people using around here), and discovered that even with its 3/4 metal edges, the M44 is actually lighter and feels a bit nimbler!

So overall, a slightly different geometry than a track ski, but light weight and great performance in and out of the track.
I always thought what you say is true about the M44 in the track and now you confirmed it. Shite do I need another pair of skis :lol:
@Verskis all these skis have a Paulownia core. They may have lightened newer models slightly.

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Theme
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Re: Are the narrow nordic backcountry skis miserable on tracks?

Post by Theme » Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:35 am

There seems to have been confusion with the Madshus model names. I think they should be more clear...

These have the Intelligrip transition removable kicker skins. Graphics have changed from the blue/white cut to full blue. The lighter color, again, is the narrower version:

Panorama M50 -> Panorama T50
Panorama M55 -> Panorama T55

They are supposed to be the same ski as the predecessors, but updated with a lighter wood core, reducing weight by ~30%! And way cooler graphics.

I think it is worth mentioning the Panorama/Fjelltech model name when talking about M50:

Fjelltech M50 = integrated skin base



If you are aiming at some turns outside the tracks but mainly skiing along tracks, I would definitely take a look at the Panorama T50 which is VERY light (690g/192cm) for a Nordic touring ski, but probably has more nordic rocker to allow turns better than the Åsnes Mountain Race 48s. Cannot say for sure - I have only skied the Panorama M55 which has good NR.

Despite some reviews, I cannot find any NR on my MR48 Skin. Have not really found them adequate for any turns yet - I have the 210 which also affects this, and I have not really taken them anywhere where turning with such a narrow ski would be possible yet. In a shorter length, probably can turn. I have Xplore on them so that will definitely help - but it may not be the best option for everyone. Pair with a light boot and binding of your taste.

I would not consider anything with a wider than 60mm shovel for tracks. The MR48 barely fits comfortably. Ousland "fits" with 66mm, but drags the edges, awfully slow in tracks because of this and the very generous NR. Though Ousland is a very fun ski to turn in its class. A 60mm shovel will pop out of the track in some curves but that is not an issue.



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Transplantskier
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Re: Are the narrow nordic backcountry skis miserable on tracks?

Post by Transplantskier » Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:40 am

I also should have mentioned that I skied the Åsnes MT51 for a couple of years and have fooled around a little with the Mountain Race 48, and in my opinion the Madshus Fjelltech 44 just acts much more like a track ski than the similar Åsnes options.



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wabene
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Re: Are the narrow nordic backcountry skis miserable on tracks?

Post by wabene » Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:00 am

@Theme said, "I think it is worth mentioning the Panorama/Fjelltech model name when talking about M50:

Fjelltech M50 = integrated skin base".


What you say is true, but my M50 from two years ago has both Panorama and Fjeltech on the ski. Madshus created all the confusion as I think they were confused as what to do. I also have the same era Panorama M62 which is a waxable base with the kicker skin attachment. Now the M62 (and 68 and 78) come only with fishscales and no kicker skin attachment. What the hell are they doing :lol: . The Fischer skis like my S-Bound 98's have scales, but also a kicker skin attachment. This makes it a very versatile backcountry ski. Attach the skin to haul your toboggan over the hills into the cabin, then take it off to enjoy said hills. That is why I have the Fisher 98 instead of the Madshus M68. It was uncertain for a while there if they were going to continue with the Transition Skin, I'm glad they did. They don't offer a variety of skin widths and types though.

Your right about the last generation graphics though, ugly. The older Eon, Epoch etc skis were great looking. I had to buy what was available. My M50'S look pretty good, I think, but I never liked the white front on the M62 and sheepishly admit I applied dark window tint to the front of the ski. They look dark and menacing now 8-)



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wabene
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Re: Are the narrow nordic backcountry skis miserable on tracks?

Post by wabene » Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:11 am

@Theme said, "If you are aiming at some turns outside the tracks but mainly skiing along tracks, I would definitely take a look at the Panorama T50 which is VERY light (690g/192cm) for a Nordic touring ski, but probably has more nordic rocker to allow turns better than the Åsnes Mountain Race 48s. Cannot say for sure - I have only skied the Panorama M55 which has good NR."

I happened to post this the other day, the rocker on the M50

Uncompressed
IMG_20221226_201935836_HDR.jpg
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IMG_20221226_202032354.jpg



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GrimSurfer
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Re: Are the narrow nordic backcountry skis miserable on tracks?

Post by GrimSurfer » Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:25 am

wabene wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:00 am
Your right about the last generation graphics though, ugly. The older Eon, Epoch etc skis were great looking. I had to buy what was available. My M50'S look pretty good, I think, but I never liked the white front on the M62 and sheepishly admit I applied dark window tint to the front of the ski. They look dark and menacing now 8-)
Ha ha. Yup. Times change.

I have an old set of Kastles from the 80s. Their graphics and colours can only be described as “Miami Vice” cool.

They were good enough classic skis but became fugly the moment the Crockett and Tubbs era came to an end. LOL.
We dreamed of riding waves of air, water, snow, and energy for centuries. When the conditions were right, the things we needed to achieve this came into being. Every idea man has ever had up to that point about time and space were changed. And it keeps on changing whenever we dream. Bio mechanical jazz, man.



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beeeweee
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Re: Are the narrow nordic backcountry skis miserable on tracks?

Post by beeeweee » Wed Dec 28, 2022 2:39 pm

GrimSurfer wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 7:18 am
There is a noticeable difference in speed between a mild backcountry ski (maximum width of 68 mm) and a track oriented ski (nominal width of 44 mm) when skiing on a compressed, groomed, and tracked surface. That difference is on the order of 10-20% for a proficient skier.
I would largely agree with this statement.

Before going into details, here’s the TLDR summary:
- If you find yourself needing powder baskets on your poles on flat/rolling terrain => light touring skis (70+mm)
- If most of your skiing is done in set track and there’s no fresh snow to break => track skis (44mm)
- If you ski in snowcat-set tracks => track skis (44mm)
- If you ski in snowmobile-set tracks and sometimes there’s 2-5cm of fresh snow => track compatible light touring skis (50-60mm)
- If you ski in skier-set tracks => light touring skis (70+mm) or track compatible light touring skis (50-60mm)

I would not recommend running track compatible light touring skis on snowcat-set tracks. The sidewalls of the tracks are very hard and each time your ski shovels make contact on a corner, it feels like your skis are rubbing against a cheese grater. It sounds as terrible as it reads, and it feels as terrible as it sounds. The MR48 with its more tapered shovel is a bit better but the M50 with its wider shovel and soft flex sucks in the corners on hard tracks.

Track compatible light touring skis would be ok in a snowmobile-set track as the sides of the tracks are much softer but if you hit a fast turn, your skis are more likely to ride out of the tracks than to get steered by the tracks like on a 44mm ski. And, you’d also ruin the track for everyone else as well.

In general, the MR48 Skin is far superior to the Fjelltech M50 on most terrain unless you’re skiing on very undulating terrain where you go up and down by 0.5-1m over the span of 2-4m. It’s no fun to ski in, so just avoid it. Why I say this is because the M48 has much better lateral and longitudinal stiffness compared to the M50 and has better edge hold on off camber traverses. The longitudinal stiffness also helps to carry speed and the stiffer double camber of the MR48 results in noticeably less skin drag compared to the Fjelltech M50.

The MR48 will do well in skier set tracks, is comparable if not faster than narrow 44mm track skis if there’s 2-3cm of fresh snow in the tracks. On firmer tracks, especially snowcat-set tracks and fairly packed snow-mobile set tracks, you’d be way faster on 44mm racing skis. Like 20-30% faster than on the MR48. That’s not to say the MR48 is slow in such conditions, it’s just that XC racing skis are that much faster and more fun.

The MR48 and M50 class skis are a bit of a compromise for kick and glide. The skis use track ski-width skins to reduce skin drag and improve glide. However, this means there’s a lot more p-tex under foot and results in poorer kick. I find myself needing to herringbone much sooner on the MR48 than on a pair of Madshus Race Pro Skin. The latter, I can literally jog/run up 5-10 degree slope without having to herringbone and I’m only limited by my ability to keep my weight forward and put enough pressure to compress the double camber and fully engage the skin, and not stop because the moment you stop, you’ll slide backwards. Whereas with the MR48, there’s no way I can do this because there’s just not enough grip no matter how much you jump on the ski.



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Verskis
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Re: Are the narrow nordic backcountry skis miserable on tracks?

Post by Verskis » Wed Dec 28, 2022 4:07 pm

fisheater wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:24 am
@Verskis Nice to see you back. Since you’re here, what MTB knee pad are you now recommending for skiing?
Bit off the topic, but I've been using the same old Gform and POC pads for years now, they've been holding up very well. I don't have any experience with newer stuff, so can't recommend anything else.
My POC VPD 2.0 pads are quite heavy duty, so for rolling terrain XCD skiing I would recommend the Gforms instead, they are barely noticeable, although less protective, of course.



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Verskis
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Re: Are the narrow nordic backcountry skis miserable on tracks?

Post by Verskis » Wed Dec 28, 2022 4:13 pm

@beeeweee , thanks for the comments, so it sounds like it's best to just use the track skis when skiing on track. Maybe I'll just need to forget about the turns altogether when track skiing.

By the way, waxable skis are great, I usually put so much wax also on my track skis that I rarely need to herringbone at all.



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Re: Are the narrow nordic backcountry skis miserable on tracks?

Post by GrimSurfer » Wed Dec 28, 2022 4:35 pm

I was out today on light BC skis. Conditions were so so… 10-15 cm of light powder overnight, melting, compressing and glazing due to rising temperatures. Semi groomed from the day before (doing more would only compress things to ice).

BC skis on covered corduroy able to keep pace with classic skis in “user tracks”. Uphill and descending turns were no contest… BC had more bite.
We dreamed of riding waves of air, water, snow, and energy for centuries. When the conditions were right, the things we needed to achieve this came into being. Every idea man has ever had up to that point about time and space were changed. And it keeps on changing whenever we dream. Bio mechanical jazz, man.



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