V6 on firm

[Stephen]

…and if I don't have enough weight on the back, that knee doesn't stay down well and the rear ski shoots forward.

I had this same problem when I dialed up the springs stiffer, so I went a little softer. I might go firmer once I’m more dialed in? Not sure on that. Like you say, a work in progress…

[jalp]

Reading through this thread, and this really jumped out at me as something I should be doing. I've done side slip drills parallel, especially with my kid to try and get him to comprehend edging. But I'm ashamed to say I've never done them tele, and thinking about it now I can already envision how much it's going to bring out my weaknessess and how messy it's going to be, particularly with my left foot uphill on harpack/crud/ice.

So thank you, now I have something to structure my next ski day around.

Sorry for the hijack...

I don’t spend much time riding chairs, or skiing open slopes that lend themselves to drills. I also am a big kid when I am on turning snow and just enjoy the experience. The one thing I do when skiing is the back foot hockey stop. I have been doing the back foot hockey stop as a practice method that it has evolved/devolved into just playing with back foot dominate turning. It definitely isn’t a drill, more like playtime, where I throw in back foot skid turns. Naturally if I’m throwing in back foot skid turns, we are talking about hard snow. Just as I really enjoy making Telemark turns, I really enjoy playing with the back foot in those conditions that allow that kind of play time.

That's good stuff too, going in my playlist...
I can instantly comprehend the value in playing with the rear foot hockey stop, and imagine how it's going to bring out weaknessess. I'm so geared towards driving the down hill ski, and the more I mess around with T turns the more I become aware of it. I play around with weighting and positioning pretty frequently, and now after reading this I'll be pursuing the rear foot hockey stops a bit when I'm out next time.
Also, like you, I do find it hard to actually be disciplined and drill and work on techniques. It's so fun to just go out and let em rip and enjoy yourself. Still though, I like to have things in mind to meditate on and experiment with.

It's my left foot in left turns in particular that are weaker.
In every other athletic pursuit, (biking, shooting, boxing etc...) I stand orthodox, left foot forward, and I'm just weak in the reverse position.

Basically I need to spend a few days skiing on my left foot.

Thanks everyone. I think I'm going to screen shot this post and bring it out with me tomorrow. It's been dry and cold here for the past few weeks. I should be able to find a nice firm/hard slope to work on some side-slipping, hockey stops and all-around edge control. Going to do myself a big favor and go with something 78 under foot and minimal rocker.

[DG99]

All sounds good. I’d add that tele turns are really easy to wash out on hardpack. I usually use parallel turns there. How is your V6 on parallel turns on hardpack? If it works fine parallel but washes out tele, then it’s a hint about your tele technique

[Montana St Alum]

All sounds good. I’d add that tele turns are really easy to wash out on hardpack. I usually use parallel turns there. How is your V6 on parallel turns on hardpack? If it works fine parallel but washes out tele, then it’s a hint about your tele technique

Valid point!

[Stephen]

If it works fine parallel but washes out tele, then it’s a hint about your tele technique

The above probably needs no confirmation, but I will confirm the above matches my experience.
Others are going to be more knowledgeable on the dynamics than I am, but, to me, it seems like it comes down to weight distribution / balance over the skis, and edge angle.

For example, if the back ski is not edged enough, it seems like that ski will wash out.
Or, if the weight is more front ski, the back ski could wash out.
In Alpine technique, it seems like back (outside of turn) ski is more weighted. This would give turn stability under center of mass. In Telemark, “should be” even weight (equals stability). If it ends up being front weight, the rear can wash out.

I agree with earlier statements that Tele turn can work with front / equal / rear weight, but only with good technique and proper edging. A beginner (like me, in my case, or OP) will not have the technique and edging down, and so if front weight, and especially flat rear edge angle, rear can wash out.

I could be blowin’ smoke, but just trying to think through the dynamics…

[DropKneeDiehard]

Was lucky enough to do a Teley workshop with one of the Woman on the Norwegian Telemark racing team.
She had us doing an exercise where you Telemark with the widest stance you can .....almost bow legged.
We called them John Wayne Teleys.
This was back in the early 90s on skinnies and leathers.

You cant help but put pressure (weighting) on your rear ski in this position...try it on the carpet.

Next exercise was to actively point the rear knee in the direction of your turn (headlights on knee caps drill).
Your ski will edge strongly when you point the knee as there is more leverage over the edge.

I will be controversial here and say IMO.....to much emphasis is placed on weight on the rear ski and too many concentrate on this when they should be pointing the knee. When you point the rear knee you leverage the edge which takes care of the weighting emphasis.

Also a high heel has more leverage over a low heel. Put your Boot in a binding and lift the heel an inch and use the top of the boot to roll the edge....now try with a high heel....better leverage. Pointing the rear knee facilitates this. Also enables more steering of the rear ski and activates the sidecut.

Rather than weighting the rear ski think more about edging it (Big toe little toe) (Pointing the rear knee)

These exercises or drills work on all telemark bindings 3 pin to NTN but especially for XCD type bindings where we have more sensitivity.

So in Summary Try telemarking with a wider stance laterally (Even try a run or too as if you have a horse between you legs.)
And point the rear knee whilst doing this. (you have to point your rear knee in a wide stance...it forces you too.)

See if I can find some old photos.

[jalp]

All sounds good. I’d add that tele turns are really easy to wash out on hardpack. I usually use parallel turns there. How is your V6 on parallel turns on hardpack? If it works fine parallel but washes out tele, then it’s a hint about your tele technique

If I remember correctly from last season, P turns didn't feel much better or any worse. I'm back to thinking that it may come down to soft boots and needing more time on the V6 in hard conditions.

I was out on my first not-xc tour of the season on Saturday, however not on the V6s. A couple of inches of fresh didn't seem to warrant 98 under foot. Also, my touring partners for the day were 20 years younger than me and on AT gear so, I went with my most forgiving setup. I didn't want to provide them with, shall we say, too much “entertainment”. All else was equal. Same boots, bindings, me, pack weight. The difference was 78 instead of 98 under foot and minimal rocker. It felt like I hadn't forgotten anything at all over the summer. It was a great day of easy powder turns up top. On the exit we had to hit a rather narrow, steep road decent. It was hard packed and hammered by snowmobiles, snowshoers and post holes. Getting down that required many quick jump p turns, side slips and hockey stops for both speed control and avoiding people on foot. No problems at all, I was actually having a lot of fun with it. If I were on the V6s I would probably have just taken them off and walked.

There was also a bit of steep bushwacking when I lost track of where we were but I don't want to talk about that...And also some awkward gully crossing to be done when I lost track of where we were and I don't really want to talk about that either...

So, my conclusion is that my technique, while far from perfect, doesn't totally suck. I have no problem with soft low boots in challenging conditions on a reasonable width ski. Soft boots plus challenging conditions plus 98 wide is likely asking too much of myself on that gear. It is super helpful for me to know where the limits are.

I do have a pair of Crispi CXP that have never been comfortable enough for me to want to spend much time in. I should probably replace the liners and give them another chance.

Thanks again everyone.

[lowangle al]

Was lucky enough to do a Teley workshop with one of the Woman on the Norwegian Telemark racing team.
She had us doing an exercise where you Telemark with the widest stance you can .....almost bow legged.
We called them John Wayne Teleys.
This was back in the early 90s on skinnies and leathers.

You cant help but put pressure (weighting) on your rear ski in this position...try it on the carpet.

Next exercise was to actively point the rear knee in the direction of your turn (headlights on knee caps drill).
Your ski will edge strongly when you point the knee as there is more leverage over the edge.

I will be controversial here and say IMO.....to much emphasis is placed on weight on the rear ski and too many concentrate on this when they should be pointing the knee. When you point the rear knee you leverage the edge which takes care of the weighting emphasis.

Also a high heel has more leverage over a low heel. Put your Boot in a binding and lift the heel an inch and use the top of the boot to roll the edge....now try with a high heel....better leverage. Pointing the rear knee facilitates this. Also enables more steering of the rear ski and activates the sidecut.

Rather than weighting the rear ski think more about edging it (Big toe little toe) (Pointing the rear knee)

These exercises or drills work on all telemark bindings 3 pin to NTN but especially for XCD type bindings where we have more sensitivity.

So in Summary Try telemarking with a wider stance laterally (Even try a run or too as if you have a horse between you legs.)
And point the rear knee whilst doing this. (you have to point your rear knee in a wide stance...it forces you too.)

See if I can find some old photos.

I agree 100% that the wide, open turn is a great learning tool and that it is near impossible not to get weight on the rear foot. I'm not with you on the high heel though. Sure your ski will turn by putting a lot of torque on your binding and pressuring the tips, but it's better to learn to get the ski to turn by having enough weight on it, it also helps in getting
centered. Plus on lighter gear, especially double camber, tip pressure might not work, and what about those of us on three pins, where your not generating tip pressure.

[DropKneeDiehard]

I agree 100% that the wide, open turn is a great learning tool and that it is near impossible not to get weight on the rear foot. I'm not with you on the high heel though. Sure your ski will turn by putting a lot of torque on your binding and pressuring the tips, but it's better to learn to get the ski to turn by having enough weight on it, it also helps in getting
centered. Plus on lighter gear, especially double camber, tip pressure might not work, and what about those of us on three pins, where your not generating tip pressure.

True getting weight or pressure is paramount. I have been experimenting with ways to do that over 40 years of telemarking through a range of bindings from 3 Pin to NTN. Some bindings force a high heel ie LInken (Not talking tippy toe as you can still pressure down through the BOF with a higher heel) ....agree there is more torque this way. Never really understood pressuring the tip to be honest as I have always skied or tried to ski neutral bindings. Probably because of starting on 3 pins. I even ski NTN on the most neutral setting and I do a lot of telemarking on skating skis and still like to ski my leathers and old pink atomics I still have.
I love playing around with bathroom scales. Bought 2 sets especially to test my telemark stance/movements.
Great for dialling in an understanding of what happens with slight adjustments in fore aft and sideways movements.
To be honest I don't really understand the concept of being centred as I am always moving fore aft and adjusting stance laterally according to the condition. Is being centred Dynamic Balance?

A Swedish Telemark Legend from the 90s taught me to ski with most of the weight on the rear ski (In certain conditions) using the front ski as a hover craft pushing on the heel of the front ski to raise the tip. It involved sitting back over the rear ski with your bum and dropping the shoulder to turn whilst pretty much dragging your hands at you hips.
This chap was in the french multiglisse movies and he rode all snow plisse equipment including mono ski.
His style was outrageous but such a fun way to ski. It was basically snowboarding on Teley's.
Sorry for the thread hijack. Love talking Telemark technique.
Hope your all getting some good turns and tours in
Its summer here down under.

[lowangle al]

It sounds like you've been doing this for about as long as me, and if you were as downhill focused, I'm sure you know how to weight your rear ski. There were a lot of tele skiers that started out later, on big stiff plastic boots, active bindings and shaped skis. Many ended up being pretty good skiers but never really got it down 100%. They have a name for them now, AT skiers.

Heavily weighting the rear ski is crucial in some conditions and situations. Back in the days of leather boots and skinny skis it was a matter of self preservation. On todays floatier and more stable skis and a light plastic boot it's not needed as often.

As far as being centered, you are right, you are constantly moving to maintain it. You know when you have it and when you don't. When you have it your stable, when you loose it your not.