Books books books!

[Johnny]

Oh, you're a double heretic-heretic!

I had pairs of both T4s and Excursions last year. Tried them a few times and sold them a week after, going back to my good old Asolos leathers. Oh I was better to the eye of the normal tele skier. I had much more control, I was way faster and I could link way more turns... But that's not the point. The point is, I just couldn't feel anything. Even if I was flying down the hill, there was no feeling at all. I felt like a cheap lo-fi plastic robot in a field of pure virgin organic snow.

Plastic ski boots are like having quick, safe sex in the backseat. While skiing with XC shoes is more like slowly making love for hours in the honeymoon suite...

I like when you can REALLY feel every subtle feeling of the snow (or other surfaces/textures : ) It's all about finesse. About slowly feeling gravity pull. About feeling the snow in the palm of your feet. Plastic don't allow those feeling to come through... They act like a Faraday Cage, blocking all the good vibes coming from the snow...

Cross. Country. Downhill: The very definition of XCD implies using cross-country gear to go downhill. It is very clear. You have to use XC shoes in order to do XCD. If you're using plastic tele boots, then it's not XCD. It's just "Light BC".

I have nothing against plastics... I have plenty of plastic boots for different uses. But I just feel sad for all the people who will never get to fall in love with the very essence of telemark...

Randonnée: French word for "Can't tele"
Backcountry skiing: Trendy word for "Can't XCD"!

[Raventele]

The fun of definitions I suppose.."Cross Country Downhill"
can also mean just be ready to flop when you come to the breakable crusts, crud,
deep heavy snow or really deep powder, and be ready to bounce on hardpack
(not just found inbounds) if you insist on skiing on truly Cross Country gear..
Would you like to rename it "let's ski all terrain on Cross Country groomed trails gear?"
Probably not, I am guessing..In the very beginning of XCD, SB at least sets some parameters
( the skis show flex VERY evenly, be sturdy with metal edges etc ) for appropriate gear, even if
some of the advice is just plain silly --like skiing a gym shoe on some sort of goofy lifter ;
gee, there are better ways to break your ankles! Do you think Glittertinds (or any of a whole host
of what we obviously see as XCD skis) are actuallyCross Country skis in any traditional sense ? No, they are at the very least a blend of design, not groomed track skis, not a resort ski..While it's probably not that hard to reach agreement on what "XCD" skis are, give or take, people seem hell-bent in disagreement on what the full experience of a
good XCD outing is..And of course, leather-vs-light plastic boots seems to be, as always, the hottest
of topics..I think you make a good point in that when one moves up in boot stiffness from the lightest
of slippers to the 4-bucke monsters each step along the way brings a distinct change in feel in the feet ;
it's not just an issue relating to XCD but skiing in general..That having been said, do you assume that
every leather has a lighter feel, a better XCD feel in general, than every light plastic ? If so, you are quite
wrong; some leathers are in fact so stiff and heavy as to have no relevance to XCD at all..And the only notable
difference in "feel" between some light plastics and some sturdy 2-buckle leathers is in bellow flex..Nothing
will flex like a leather..
BTW, most ( all in the case of skating) "true" Cross Country skiing is done in plastic hybrid boots these days..
Another problem I have with what you seem to suggest by the reference to "virgin" conditions is that if you
are only going to ski those conditions, then chances are you really won't ski THAT much..

[Johnny]

XCD skis: Doesn't matter, as long as it's under 109mm... : )

I ski everyday. If I'm not first tracks, I go elsewhere until I find fresh snow. Life's too short to ski crud... I leave that to week-enders.

You are right about some old bad leathers, some of them are so stiff they just hurt. But I think you got the MOST IMPORTANT point of it all: Bellow flex. I think this is the source of "how" the real/original/pure/awesome telemark feeling is transmitted to the brain. This is why XC shoes are so awesome. Flex is 0, or 100% depending on your point of view. If you don't do it right, you will crunch your feet. But if you do it just right, you'll get the second best feeling in the world... It will also means that your balance is just perfect, and so will your life...

If you don't do it right on plastics, nothing will happen. If you do it right on plastics, nothing will happen either.

[Raventele]

LJ,
If you take a cambered ski with
a simple 3pin (no cable) binding
and floppy shoes and try and ski them in
crud, heavy snow or ice or hardpack, the signals
that will get transmitted to your brain are not going
to be at all pleasant..
BTW, those Guides are not exactly the smallest of XCD
options , in fact they are some of the largest, and they
are alpine cambered..
Edited to say that in soft snow, cambered skis
and slippers can be great fun..

[Johnny]

Who would want to ski that kind of snow?!?

I was a bit scared when I bought a pair of Epochs, knowing they were double-camber and I never skied anything like this before. I talked to a guy who bought a pair and sold it the day after because he couldn't turn at all. But they are my favorite skis when it's not bottomless... I even bring them on the groomers sometimes, and they are really, really fun!

That's why I wanna go skinnier now... I just realize how fun it is... I didn't know... nobody told me... Well, I think I just wasn't confident enough... I thought I couldn't do it...

[Raventele]

Now lJ, The Epoch (old 10th Mountain MINUS a lot of camber as per heavy advertising)
has "slightly" more camber than the Annums which are Alpine or single-cambered..
My Alpina Lite Terrains also have "slightly" more camber than
the Alpina Xterrains which are also Alpine-cambered..It's not
even accurate to call either ski in question 1.5 camber , let alone 2x !
Just compare them to a true XC double camber..
If you want, for whatever reasons, an almost true nordic camber in
something called XCD, buy some Atomic Rainiers..I am just kidding
; don't waste your $$$ on Rainers!

[Teleman]

Nature is our Temple and we pay homage on bended knee.....Any leather boot will do....I mean when you go to swaps....to get used you get used....my 2$ boots are holding together for 4 trips...Happiness is GLUE Teleman

[Teleman]

Leather is about flex and feel....You can be a power skier....or a finesse skier....possibly both in different worlds....but in the bush a skinny lite slicer and dicer is the fancy Maple Syrup....Jonny Ron puts up shots of the kingdom Tele Boys and you have seen them....Until recently the widest tip was an 88 Rebound....Telewheels used some Guides for several years and is now into Vectors....He likes them but they kinda ski like slugs....Kinda slow and no slice....The Vectors didn't hold him up in the pow either....Ours went under but because of weight and size we can easily lift the tips making for easier turning while heading them down.....because a TURN will really slow you down....while maintaining heading them down gives the skinnier the edge....faster= easier turns.....Also his BINDINGS weigh almost as much as our skis!!!!!!!! Telewood just got some Rossi 110 and he skied them well, no turns just slight arcs which worked real good...Skinnier than the Vectors but at least for me way to wide.....forces the feet apart....That forces a modified parallel stance which is the beginning of parallel and port and starboard balance....A no-no in our opinion....Telemark is fore aft balance and it makes a serious difference in how one skis....One long rail slices through small openings....It makes all the difference.....Teleman

[Johnny]

2$ boots (just like 2$ skis) are the best!!

You'd be surprised to see how much cambered the new Epochs really are... Never had anything like this before... Compared to all the wife's XC skis, it's about the same... Nothing to do with the Annums non-existent camber...

Well, one thing is sure, I'm done collecting fat skis. This summer, I will be checking garage sales for all kinds of XC gear...

[Raventele]

Dunno..Used to ski the 10th mts some.. I would say they were
1.5 camber before the changes at Madshus..It's not JUST
camber that can make a ski unstable on difficult or hard/icy
snow ; it's the combination of flex and camber..I guess in
theory there could be a 2x cambered ski ( if you don't define being unable
to push out the arc as part of 2X camber ) with some wonderfully
even flex that would handle well over a decent range of conditions..
In theory..Some say the Glittertinds are such a ski..I have never gotten
to ski the Glittertinds, but having checked them out numerous times in
shops, I would say they have a very soft tip and tail flex..but they still
seemed very stiff in the mids to me..
I have been interested in the Epochs precisely because Madshus
advertises them a being just a bit more cambered than the Annums,
which to me means they might make a great XCD ski..But, I already
have both Xterrains and Lite Terrains and either of them CAN be skied,
at moderate speeds at least, on hard snow and ice, so nothing to be
gained by buying more XCD skis EXCEPT the longest the X's come in
is 170, which is pretty silly, and the Lites come in up to 180 and
185-190 would be better ..