Wax pocket Q

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Hunttr
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Re: Wax pocket Q

Post by Hunttr » Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:49 am

"Pinnah advices to coat klister (or soft wax) with harder wax to prevent dirt and snow from sticking. Spread a thin layer of harder wax on top of soft wax to make a coating. This works best outdoors, when ski and wax are cold."

Hmmm, I have to wonder how this would work.Seems like you would be preventing the softer wax from doing what it is suposed to do.So many variables and options.Thanks for all the great advice.

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tkarhu
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Re: Wax pocket Q

Post by tkarhu » Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:12 am

Hunttr wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:49 am
"Pinnah advices to coat klister (or soft wax) with harder wax to prevent dirt and snow from sticking. Spread a thin layer of harder wax on top of soft wax to make a coating. This works best outdoors, when ski and wax are cold."

Hmmm, I have to wonder how this would work.Seems like you would be preventing the softer wax from doing what it is suposed to do.So many variables and options.Thanks for all the great advice.
The coating method has been used since ages and in different contexts. It was recommended in the BC community in early 2000's, and is instructed by the Finnish skiing / outdoors association / officials currently. We have lots of temps around 0' C in Southern Finland, so coating is useful.

In practice, using coatings is not that complicated. You just need two cans instead of one.



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Re: Wax pocket Q

Post by wabene » Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:32 am

My garage is usually heated to about 40f (huge beer fridge). Good temp for waxing. I like to do my kick wax of the day on my bench where I can cork the heck out of it and get it super smooth. I do 4 coats every time. This works almost every time with no adjustment needed. I check the current temp at my planned location, homing in with the closest weather station on the Wunderground map and correlate that with the hourly temperature progression on AccuWeather. Then if on the fence, of course I choose the colder wax and bring that one and the next warmer with me.
Waxing on the trail never turns out nearly as well for me, but still works when an adjustment is needed.
Last edited by wabene on Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Roelant
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Re: Wax pocket Q

Post by Roelant » Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:59 am

Woodserson wrote:
Mon Feb 14, 2022 5:25 pm
But 215lbs on the 210 Gamme is totally fine. You are not too heavy for these skis. If you were-- you wouldn't be having grip issues!
This is an interesting thing to ponder from a physics perspective, and I thought about it quite a bit, to figure out why I was having more difficulty with the Nansen Waxless than some others.

The static frictional force is proportional to the normal force, which is a function of weight and slope angle, and the friction coeffecient (which is defined by the actual contact type between the ski and the snow surface).

If skis were not cambered, static heavier skiers and lighter skiers would have the same angle where they start slipping backwards. However, to propel a heavier skier upwards, a higher force must be applied to the ski as there is more mass to propel.

Skis are cambered however, so there is a larger proportion of the downward force (from the skiers weight) which is in the non-gripping tips for lighter skiers, giving heavier skiers a grip advantage at least in static friction.

My intuition is that there is a point where, once cambered skis are compressed flat in a kick movement, heavier skiers need a higher grip coefficient to propel their weight forwards. But I have not tried to solve it formally.



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Stephen
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Re: Wax pocket Q

Post by Stephen » Tue Feb 15, 2022 3:05 pm

Roelant wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:59 am
.
.
But I have not tried to solve it formally.
Well, get on it, man. We need research-based, peer-reviewed, published papers on this.
Isn’t there a Nobel prize in this category?
:lol: :oops: 8-)



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Roelant
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Re: Wax pocket Q

Post by Roelant » Tue Feb 15, 2022 3:08 pm

Stephen wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 3:05 pm
Roelant wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:59 am
.
.
But I have not tried to solve it formally.
Well, get on it, man. We need research-based, peer-reviewed, published papers on this.
Isn’t there a Nobel prize in this category?
:lol: :oops: 8-)
I'm to busy, now I only make time for beer reviewed papers :)



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Hunttr
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Re: Wax pocket Q

Post by Hunttr » Wed Feb 16, 2022 8:05 pm

tkarhu wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:12 am
Hunttr wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:49 am
"Pinnah advices to coat klister (or soft wax) with harder wax to prevent dirt and snow from sticking. Spread a thin layer of harder wax on top of soft wax to make a coating. This works best outdoors, when ski and wax are cold."

Hmmm, I have to wonder how this would work.Seems like you would be preventing the softer wax from doing what it is suposed to do.So many variables and options.Thanks for all the great advice.
The coating method has been used since ages and in different contexts. It was recommended in the BC community in early 2000's, and is instructed by the Finnish skiing / outdoors association / officials currently. We have lots of temps around 0' C in Southern Finland, so coating is useful.

In practice, using coatings is not that complicated. You just need two cans instead of one.
Good advice, I will definentely give it a try.



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Re: Wax pocket Q

Post by fisheater » Wed Feb 16, 2022 8:20 pm

I have placed hard wax over soft wax, with success. The theory is that the hard wax will not stick. The thin hard layer while not sticking allows the snow crystals to grip into the softer wax below.
It makes sense mechanically to me, and it works!



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Krakus
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Re: Wax pocket Q

Post by Krakus » Thu Feb 17, 2022 6:03 am

@fisheater I've tried this coating trick a few times, covering Swix Universal klister with Blue or Violet, but with no success. Maybe some details are important? How thick should be klister, how long should it cool, how to cover with hard wax?



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tkarhu
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Re: Wax pocket Q

Post by tkarhu » Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:51 pm

Krakus wrote:
Thu Feb 17, 2022 6:03 am
@fisheater I've tried this coating trick a few times, covering Swix Universal klister with Blue or Violet, but with no success. Maybe some details are important? How thick should be klister, how long should it cool, how to cover with hard wax?
IME the trick works best, when wax, klister and ski are cold.

Today I was too busy to go skiing, and had not taken waxes and skis out to cool down. I took them only out, when I started waxing. First draws of wax gave thin layers, but only surface of wax tin had cooled down. Thus, later draws gave thicker layer because wax was warmer below first peeled layers. When skiing, klister did not grip from below the thick layer of wax coating. Well it was ok not but not as good as earlier.

The time before, I had taken skis and waxes out to cool down the night before. Then I got a nice thin layer. Also when wax had worn out, and I stopped to wax, I got nice and thin layers, probably because klister, wax and skis were cold.

I do not use the exact same products but liquid klister. Liwuid versions give a thin layer of klister. It might be difficult to spread wax on top of a thick layer of jelly. Having skis to cool down after spreading klister might help there. Klister (or wax) that is already spread cools down faster than a wax that is still in tin. One thing people do is to add coating last thing before you click boots to bindings.



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