Light & agile tele: SB with the new transnordic leather?

[TheMusher]

@TheMusher
Does your Lundhags Expedition 75 have a 3pin duckbill?
Some versions of this boot do not have the NN 3pin holes and can only be used with a cable binding...

Sorry just saw your reply/question without reading the thread. The Lundhags Expedition 75 was intented to be used solely with cables, even in a 3-pin rat trap type binding. They state it right on their website:

"For wire bindings only, not for 3-pin attachment."

As far as matching a leather boot with a SB, I am quite against that. Leather boots are too soft for the pressure exerted but cartidge bindings, IMO.

Yes what Bgreg says. They're designed for use with Switchback type - and explcitily not 3-pins (they go a far way to say its because of the toe part of the sole bending & breaking. My speculation is that it's because the boot is so stiff, all the forces of the 3-pin bending is absorbed at the sole attachment points - as opposed to the entire boot bending).

I appreciate what you say Bgreg, but due to the above, I can't help to think they must be working well with a switchback?

From experience, Lundhags are masters of their craft - famously making boots for special forces in the Nordics - and surely must know what they are doing here?
I'm also encouraged because the bottom part is practically stiff rubber ("brick" was the word used by Utemagasinet.no) and hence not the average leather boot. Anyways, they're arriving on Thursday, so I'll give it a dry run and report back.

Apply the same logic to the Transnordic 75; From what I'm reading on this forum, they're so stiff its almost painful to walk or distance tour in, and they're specifically designed for turns. In other words, a stark contrast to the average leather boot. We'll see, my hypotheses may very well be off mark..

Have you had any bad first hand experiences with comparable setups?

[TheMusher]

Update on this ongoing project

I have now ordered BOTH a Guide Expedition 75 and Fischer Transnordic 75.
Will make a side-by-side comparison and decide which one is most fit for the purpose - sufficient walking comfort, solid downhill performance. Will share my takeaways here.

The boots of choice will be paired with a Switchback X2

@consular_ship, @brwilkinson, @Roelant. For those of you that have tried the Transnordic 75 - how wide of a ski are you rocking it with, and does it provide sufficient edge control?

Im leaning towards 90-96mm waist, but would love to have some comfort that this can be handled by the boots.

@fisheater. I've noted your love for the Alicos with great interest. You reckon those should be in the contest? They seem somewhat on the heavy side and less "agile"? Although obviously very robust and great craftmanship

Actually I’m quite interested in reading reviews of the Transnordic 75 and the Ludhags Guide Expedition 75, with the caveat I think I prefer a 3-pin option with a 75 mm boot. Right now my Alaska 75 is getting out more than my Ski March. However we are supposed to get a minimum of 30 cm of snow, however possibly well over 40 cm. If I break out the Tindan, I will be using the Ski March boot. So how does this answer your question? I’m not sure it does. I can say that the Ski March boot handles a ski 86mm underfoot well in good snow conditions. I can also say there are also snow conditions where the Ski March will not handle 86 mm underfoot. The power of manky snow will definitely be more powerful than the Ski March sole, when the snow is powerful enough to push the ski around. I hope this helps, I will be looking forward to your reports.

Gotcha! I’ll have the T4 in my sleeve for the days of conditions the leather just wont cut it..
Sounds like you’ll be most interested in the Transnordic, which by default are compatible with 3-pin. Ill try them also with my regular 3-pins.
The boots are arriving later this week. Stay tuned.

[CwmRaider]

Apply the same logic to the Transnordic 75; From what I'm reading on this forum, they're so stiff its almost painful to walk or distance tour in, and they're specifically designed for turns. In other words, a stark contrast to the average leather boot. We'll see, my hypotheses may very well be off mark..

Nah they aren't painful, I toured with the shaft laces pretty loose and it is fine for 12km, that's the longest I have used them in a day. I'm sure longer distances are ok too as long as you find a good fit.
I like the boots, they won't replace my Crispi Bre but offer much more support, in the form of ankle support and along axis twist resistance of the sole. Inevitably ankle support is also limiting freedom of movement somewhat, but for me, they are much more comfortable to tour in than the T4 were.
By the way you asked higher up, I only use them with XCD skis with Rottefella Super Telemark bindings ( max 62mm underfoot) as that's what I have and like to use.

[bgregoire]

I appreciate what you say Bgreg, but due to the above, I can't help to think they must be working well with a switchback?

From experience, Lundhags are masters of their craft - famously making boots for special forces in the Nordics - and surely must know what they are doing here?
I'm also encouraged because the bottom part is practically stiff rubber ("brick" was the word used by Utemagasinet.no) and hence not the average leather boot. Anyways, they're arriving on Thursday, so I'll give it a dry run and report back.

Apply the same logic to the Transnordic 75; From what I'm reading on this forum, they're so stiff its almost painful to walk or distance tour in, and they're specifically designed for turns. In other words, a stark contrast to the average leather boot. We'll see, my hypotheses may very well be off mark..

Have you had any bad first hand experiences with comparable setups?

Lundhags are masters yes, but from my understanding these expedition boots were designed primarily for touring (and say hunting), so fjellskiing. Switchbacks (especially the X2s and other cartridge cable binding) are designed for downhill telemark, which is another design mindset altogether.

Back in the day (or so...i'm not that old), lots of folks toured with a variety of cable bindings that were a LOT less active than SBs. That is, i am quite certain, when and for what these lundhags expedition boots were designed for (this boot is based on a previous, all black version which i forget the name of).

The soles on these boots are Vibram just like the rest of today's leathers. Lundhags, as I said, designed these for touring, so I'm quite sure they are relatively flexible and worried they might crack at the toe/pins if used too agressively for telemark (without cables). They are just not made for that.

If you really insist on skiing leathers on non-3pin cable bindings, I recommend finding something less active and oldschool like Rottefella Chilis/Rivas. It would be a better match. But then again, seems you are quite gun-ho about experimenting, so I will sit back and enjoy reading your results when you are ready to share! Always open to learning and surprises!

UPDATE: I see on their website that Lundhags recommends these be paired with telemark bindings, include the Sbs (NOTE: they do not include SB X2s). I believe part of the reason they include the SBs in their shortlist, is that cable-only non-cartridge bindings just are not made anymore (please correct me if I am wrong). Those would be a better match. The good news, is that these less active bindings are easy to find on the cheap....

[consular_ship]

Update on this ongoing project

I have now ordered BOTH a Guide Expedition 75 and Fischer Transnordic 75.
Will make a side-by-side comparison and decide which one is most fit for the purpose - sufficient walking comfort, solid downhill performance. Will share my takeaways here.

The boots of choice will be paired with a Switchback X2

@consular_ship, @brwilkinson, @Roelant. For those of you that have tried the Transnordic 75 - how wide of a ski are you rocking it with, and does it provide sufficient edge control?

Im leaning towards 90-96mm waist, but would love to have some comfort that this can be handled by the boots.

@fisheater. I've noted your love for the Alicos with great interest. You reckon those should be in the contest? They seem somewhat on the heavy side and less "agile"? Although obviously very robust and great craftmanship

my sbounds are 78 under foot (overkill for most of my skiing, but they keep me fit). i skied the golf course at lunch and my transnordics drove the skis well in the corn

[consular_ship]

@TheMusher
Does your Lundhags Expedition 75 have a 3pin duckbill?
Some versions of this boot do not have the NN 3pin holes and can only be used with a cable binding...

Sorry just saw your reply/question without reading the thread. The Lundhags Expedition 75 was intented to be used solely with cables, even in a 3-pin rat trap type binding. They state it right on their website:

"For wire bindings only, not for 3-pin attachment."

As far as matching a leather boot with a SB, I am quite against that. Leather boots are too soft for the pressure exerted but cartidge bindings, IMO.

Yes what Bgreg says. They're designed for use with Switchback type - and explcitily not 3-pins (they go a far way to say its because of the toe part of the sole bending & breaking. My speculation is that it's because the boot is so stiff, all the forces of the 3-pin bending is absorbed at the sole attachment points - as opposed to the entire boot bending).

I appreciate what you say Bgreg, but due to the above, I can't help to think they must be working well with a switchback?

From experience, Lundhags are masters of their craft - famously making boots for special forces in the Nordics - and surely must know what they are doing here?
I'm also encouraged because the bottom part is practically stiff rubber ("brick" was the word used by Utemagasinet.no) and hence not the average leather boot. Anyways, they're arriving on Thursday, so I'll give it a dry run and report back.

Apply the same logic to the Transnordic 75; From what I'm reading on this forum, they're so stiff its almost painful to walk or distance tour in, and they're specifically designed for turns. In other words, a stark contrast to the average leather boot. We'll see, my hypotheses may very well be off mark..

Have you had any bad first hand experiences with comparable setups?

i have about 50 miles on the boots. due to time constraints my longest ski has been about 7 miles and my limiting factor was my fitness, not foot discomfort. i ordered the 42 because I wear a size 9 typically and have semi-flat feet according to my pt friend. i found them to fit looser than my t2, so i double up on socks and have been enjoying them otherwise. ymmv

[telerat]

Edit: This version of Lundhags Guide Expedition is for 87-91 mm bindings used by the military, and is not 75mm compatible, 3-pin or not. Post edited.

Picture of the sole (from https://www.coldskills.com/lang-EN/shop ... dition-ski):

You can clearly see that the sole on this boot looks different from the 75 mm version on Lundhags website and other places. I have tried to find a picture of the sole, and the above was the only one I found, so can someone please post a picture of the sole from Lundhags Guide Expedition 75 if they get/find it?

I have only used the regular Switchback with the original black Terminator boot and a few tours on Asolo Extreme, and it is a great binding, but then it wasn't much flat terrain. I'm skeptical of flat skiing with a free pivot, but I'll try it with my Xplore boots when I have the chance as sort of comparison. I think I would choose the regular Switchback version instead of the X2 for a leather boot, but others may disagree. For steeper tours with full length skins I would recommend the Switchback binding anyway with either stiff leather or plastic boots.

My first thought seeing the sole and missing 3-pin compatibility on Lundhags Guide Expedition is that the boot is made for the military and Rottefella M98/(original) Riva cable bindings. Rottefella 412 would also be a good alternative, and Riva 2/3 may possibly work. (75mm telemark equipment is often found cheaply used here in Norway). I have used both 412 and Riva 3 with Asolo Morgedal, and the 412 with cable pivot points in the forward position was quite nice to ski with, but in the rear position gave too much heel retention and started to cause blisters even at low tension. Adjusting tension was tedious. The Riva 3 had cable pivot points about equal to the 412 in rear position and also required more spring tension to keep the heel throw in place, but may be an alternative for a boot this stiff. I seem to remember it working better with my Asolo Extreme, but unfortunately that boot hurts my feet so I have used it too little.

With a boot like this and tours like Store Riingstind where there is both very flat and steep sections, I think Rottefella 75mm with cable or Voile Hardwire 3-pin would be my preferred binding, but sadly that doesn't seem an option with Lundhags Guide Expedition 75. Then there would also be redundancy in case of binding failure. The wire often get worn, so bring spare parts on longer tours. Good luck and happy touring.

[havuja]

The boot in the above picture is made for 87-91 mm bindings, as it says in the link. Those are commonly used with Finnish and Swedish forest and military skis. Would work with those bindings found on Norwegian Natoplanker too.

I have thought of trying Switchback with a third mode. That would mean finding a softer cartridge/cable that fits them, which would be used in dh mode for touring in flats and undulating terrain, possibly yo-yoing (think of LoFi and his Hardwires). Why would it not work as good or bad as those old Rivas and such? For now I ended up buying X2's for other reasons, but if someone wants to experiment I want to know the results for future! I think it would be a great add for their versatility.

[lilcliffy]

Does that Lundhags boot in the photo ↑ https://www.coldskills.com/lang-EN/shop ... dition-ski have a 3-pin compatible sole?

[Cannatonic]

Looks like the Lundhags are NOT 3-pin - should be an awesome boot, Lundhags are very high quality:

https://www.lundhags.com/en/footwear/wo ... dition-75/

*edit OK somebody already said that. Boots look gorgeous, I'm still mourning the loss of the traditional welted 75mm sole which would be a great match for the leather uppers on these boots.