Considering the Gamme

[wabene]

Lilcliffy writes in his kick wax tutorial in the Telewiki section that use of polar was traditional method in Quebec.

I haven't glide waxed in almost 20 years. Polar is my glide wax.

It's what we did with wooden skis, that's where I got it. I think I'm the first one to promote it here, and people were skeptical.

For sure, the tip-to-tail Polar works great in a lot of scenarios. I didn't grow up skiing, I'm a wide open, flat-land, southern Saskatchewan farm boy. Moving to Alberta for college and meeting my wife is what introduced me to Nordic touring. Her parents (now 65) and grandparents (now 85) toured extensively in the Alberta Rockies. And they are in the same camp - always waxed tip-to-tail Polar and then apply wax of the day underfoot. Same story - it harkens back to how they used to prep their wooden touring skis and they carried it over to their synthetic skis in the 80's.

Where this really didn't work for me was when my wife and I were living up in northeastern Alberta. Often skiing in -25 to -35 degree C temps, no sun softening or moisture in the snow, crystals were sharp and hard. When Polar is the wax of the day, you're shuffling. The best I could find for somewhat reasonable glide at those temps was hot waxing tips and tails with Swix CH4 (their polar glide wax; extremely hard, terrible to get it to melt/spread and even worse to scrape, avoid if possible haha).

Now that we're back down into the west-central country, this technique likely becomes more relevant for us again. But at the same time, I don't mind hot waxing either (you know, as long as it's not CH4).

How do you find the very hard glife wax (e.g. CH4) works when the snow warms up?
Even in the heart of my winter- with months of -20 to -30C weather- we get regular warm ups (which seems to be increasing in its frequency and extremity)
I have personally found that very hard glide wax does not work in warm wet snow- so I either need to strip the base and move to softer glide wax- have a different ski prepped for warmer snow- or simply wait out the warm up, just ot return to the deep freeze...
Perhaps your winter temperatures are more stable than mine? (I would think that they would be...)

I usually do my tips and tails with cold green glide wax. Then when it warms a little I’ll use blue glide over the top of the green. I’ve had good results with this and always thought you could go softer over hard wax. Not sure you can go the other way, but I probably have. Only once and a while when there are going to be sustained temps around freezing will I go as soft as purple for the glide. When I do it is a fast ride. My two cents.
I’ve been meaning to try the polar grip wax as described by lil cliffy on my M62’s, but this single camber ski has such unbelievable grip with the standard grip/glide technique I haven’t had to yet. These are the first Nordic skis I’ve used that don’t have a double camber and I feel like you can just walk up anything. If the glide is good too they are super fun.

[Smitty]

How do you find the very hard glife wax (e.g. CH4) works when the snow warms up?
Even in the heart of my winter- with months of -20 to -30C weather- we get regular warm ups (which seems to be increasing in its frequency and extremity)
I have personally found that very hard glide wax does not work in warm wet snow- so I either need to strip the base and move to softer glide wax- have a different ski prepped for warmer snow- or simply wait out the warm up, just ot return to the deep freeze...
Perhaps your winter temperatures are more stable than mine? (I would think that they would be...)

Same experience here with the CH4 in warmer weather. Once there's some moisture in the snow, your ski base becomes a suction cup. It could be unpleasant when we did trips down south.

You bet, at home we had very stable temps and very little moisture in the snow - I could get by with only ever using Swix green or polar underfoot between beginning of December and end of February.

[corlay]

there have been a number of mentions on TT recently regarding using the "herring-bone" technique to get up steep slopes-

I don't believe in using the herring-bone technique-

as a Nordic skier that is almost always on backcountry snow- the herring-bone technique is impractical, inefficient, and can be completely futile (e.g. very deep snow)-

if I find myself needing to use the herring-bone technique on a BC tour, from my perspective I need to change something- add more or softer kick wax/put on a skin, etc.

with a grip-waxed base I almost never need to use the herring-bone technique- even with my longish stiff touring skis (e.g. 210 Gamme/210 Amundsen/210 E99/205 Ingstad).

I use this technique often, for ascending short (50yds, tops), steep-ish "hills" I encounter on my woodland treks.

I agree, sustained long ascents with this technique would be inefficient and tiresome.
But it makes no sense to adjust wax and/or install skins for a short climb.

[Inspiredcapers]

“Polar as a glide wax doesn't last long, maybe just 5 to 7 miles in normal snow. Luckily it can be reapplied in just a few minutes on the trail. It will wear off your tails first, especially on rockered skis, so you may only have to do the tails if you are in a hurry and don't want to get left behind. Wax in general wears off quicker if you are doing a lot turns like I do, so your mileage may vary.”

This comment by lowangle al has me wondering if lil cliffys technique of ironing in the polar extends the mileage at all? I’ve got a pair of Gammes enroute from La Cordee. One of the first trips I plan on is skiing into Red Rock (Waterton Lakes National Park) which is roughly 17 miles round trip. I totally anticipate having to touch up my wax during an outing like that, I’m just curious whether ironing in has extended longevity in lil cliffys (or anyone else’s) experience.

[lilcliffy]

“Polar as a glide wax doesn't last long, maybe just 5 to 7 miles in normal snow. Luckily it can be reapplied in just a few minutes on the trail. It will wear off your tails first, especially on rockered skis, so you may only have to do the tails if you are in a hurry and don't want to get left behind. Wax in general wears off quicker if you are doing a lot turns like I do, so your mileage may vary.”

This comment by lowangle al has me wondering if lil cliffys technique of ironing in the polar extends the mileage at all? I’ve got a pair of Gammes enroute from La Cordee. One of the first trips I plan on is skiing into Red Rock (Waterton Lakes National Park) which is roughly 17 miles round trip. I totally anticipate having to touch up my wax during an outing like that, I’m just curious whether ironing in has extended longevity in lil cliffys (or anyone else’s) experience.

I have never truly measured this- so I suppose it is only my own anecdotal evidence-

I do think that melting the wax into the base improves retention and results in longer wax retention-

Of course, even if this is true- one should be able to replicate this result with friction heat from manual buffing with a cork...
So this may simply be a function of my lack of commitment to manual buffing with a cork! (i.e. I may just be lazier than Bob!)

In ideal snow (not overly abrasive) I have easily gotten more than 17miles of wax retention- even in hilly forested terrain.
In less than ideal snow (e.g. very cold, icy, refrozen) I would expect to have to touch up grip wax ~once on a 17mi trip, and kick wax underfoot more than twice (depending on severity of conditions).

[mikael.oh]

there have been a number of mentions on TT recently regarding using the "herring-bone" technique to get up steep slopes-

I don't believe in using the herring-bone technique-

as a Nordic skier that is almost always on backcountry snow- the herring-bone technique is impractical, inefficient, and can be completely futile (e.g. very deep snow)-

if I find myself needing to use the herring-bone technique on a BC tour, from my perspective I need to change something- add more or softer kick wax/put on a skin, etc.

with a grip-waxed base I almost never need to use the herring-bone technique- even with my longish stiff touring skis (e.g. 210 Gamme/210 Amundsen/210 E99/205 Ingstad).

I use this technique often, for ascending short (50yds, tops), steep-ish "hills" I encounter on my woodland treks.

I agree, sustained long ascents with this technique would be inefficient and tiresome.
But it makes no sense to adjust wax and/or install skins for a short climb.

Same with me. I'm talking about the short steep climbs where you'll fall over backwards if you try to go straight up. Maybe if you had heel risers you could do it. Most probably though you need herring bone, or even side stepping in some cases.

[Stephen]

@lilcliffy, my head hurts thinking about this waxing thing!

I think you should come up with some new terminology to differentiate the grip-as-glide wax concept.
You could have something like:

- Glide wax (wax formulated as glide wax used on tips / tails, or used on traction pattern as glide wax)
- Grip-glide wax (new designation of too-hard-for-current-temps grip wax used as (mostly) glide wax on the entire ski base)
- Grip wax (or Kick wax, used under kick zone for traction / kick — I think it would be better to use just one term, prefer grip wax)

Am I on the right track?


EDIT - ADD:
On ironing in wax…
Sintered bases are porous (there are gas molecules in the pores of the base);
Warming the base with an iron when melting the wax (which is much more heat than corking generates) expands the gas within the base;
When the iron is removed, the gas contracts, which pulls the melted wax into the base;
(Plus, corked wax doesn’t melt, so can’t be pulled into the porous base.)
To me, this explains why ironed in wax may last longer than corked in wax.
Not saying one is right or wrong — just pointing out the physics involved.

[lilcliffy]

@Stephen As my Welsh-speaking (1st language) grandmother always said- "English sucks".

I once asked a friend of mine- a Wolastoqey Elder and botanist- what the Wolostoqey word was for paper/white birch (Betula papyrifera).

(I was- and am- super keen for my students to be exposed to and learn some indigenous names for forest plants, animals and other features.)

Her response- "which one?"

My second question- "whadya mean which one- you mean there is more than one?"

Her second response- "there is no one word for white birch in my language- I know of at least 2 dozen names associated with this tree- depending on what it is used for- what stage of development it is in- and sometimes the season that itis used- and I am sure that there are more names for it that I am not aware of".

I can't remember how many names/words the Inuit, the Sami and other northern indigenous peoples have for "snow"...

Again- I'm sorry, but english sucks.

I know that grip wax and kick wax are "the same thing"- the problem is that they are not. I am trying to use these english words with intention and meaning.

[lilcliffy]

EDIT - ADD:
On ironing in wax…
Sintered bases are porous (there are gas molecules in the pores of the base);
Warming the base with an iron when melting the wax (which is much more heat than corking generates) expands the gas within the base;
When the iron is removed, the gas contracts, which pulls the melted wax into the base;
(Plus, corked wax doesn’t melt, so can’t be pulled into the porous base.)
To me, this explains why ironed in wax may last longer than corked in wax.
Not saying one is right or wrong — just pointing out the physics involved.

Right!
Thanks for the factual knowledge insert here!
Good break from the anecdotal!

[Stephen]

@Stephen As my Welsh-speaking (1st language) grandmother always said- "English sucks".

I know that grip wax and kick wax are "the same thing"- the problem is that they are not. I am trying to use these english words with intention and meaning.

That's my point -- make up some new words, like Grip-glide wax.

As for Grip wax and Kick wax, is there a difference if Grip Wax used for Glide Wax is called something different, like Grip-glide wax?

Under your system, we might call them:
1. Glide wax
2. Grip-glide wax
3. Kick wax.

I think there are only two uses for that stuff that comes in little tins.

Glide
Kick (Grip).

There seems to be a valid drive to designate a third category, which is Kick wax used as Glide wax (mostly, with a little grip tossed in).

I'm just flailing around here trying to impose order on chaos!
It seems like there is confusion and ambiguity about the terminology for this waxing technique.


If I'm lost, I (respectfully) challenge you to clearly articulate your terminology!
Geek out...