Considering the Gamme

[lilcliffy]

@tkarhu
Asnes Rago- sweet!
I LOVE my Amudsen- I think it is Asnes' best kept secret.

[lilcliffy]

By the way, I notice two topics repeat above:
1) Ski length 10 cm longer than Åsnes recommends (200 vs 210 cm Gamme)
2) Full length Polar grip wax

I came to think — do the two ideas go together? Could polar wax bring some grip besides glide? @lilcliffy and @fisheater do I remember correctly that you both do long skis and polar base wax. What do you think?

There is definitely something here-

Grip wax always offers some grip- even if it is not enough grip to work effectively as a kick wax.
If the grip wax is too hard for the snow temp- it will not work effectively as a kick wax alone- it will glide beautifully- yet still offer some grip.
If the snow is very warm, very hard grip wax will offer very little grip.

I am almost always getting at least some grip from my grip-waxed base.
In the heart of my winter, I can tour for weeks on a grip-waxed base alone- without needing any softer kick wax undefoot, in the kick zone.

My local touring is VERY hilly, with lots of steep climbs- I need consistent grip- and waxless scales are RARELY effective for climbing on their own (the snow is too cold and/or icy).

We also get a LOT of continous snowfall- I am more often breaking trail than skiing in a broken out track.

Once the snow gets deep enough (which it finally is as of last weekend- phew- it is late!)- I am touring through the forest- skiing on not only hilly topography, but also highly variable microtopography (i.e. pits and mounds, hummocks, fallen trees, forest understory shrubs and trees).

When the snow is cold enough that the hard grip wax is an effective kick wax- I simply start removing some of it (i.e. scrape and polish) until I get the ideal balance of grip and glide. At very cold temps I am sure that there is almost no wax on a significant area of the shovel and tail.

For my local touring- I have zero interest in trying to manage a complex balance of glide and kick wax- and I am not about to strip glide wax every time the temp fluctuates in the winter (which is definitely becoming more common as a function of climate change).

So- yes- I would think that I can climb up steep slopes on long stiff touring skis at least partially because I am getting some grip from my grip-waxed base. I have regulary climbed up slopes on grip wax alone, while other skiers are having to put on skins. And these same skiers are not getting better grip-glide when XC skiing either.

To each their own! And to each their own skiing context and environment. I am focused on a waxing system that works for my local backcountry touring context- it will not be effecitve everywhere.

Grip-waxing the entire base will certainly not win any world-class Classic races- but I still regulary cruise by casual recreational track skiers that are fussing with glide-kick wax frustration on the edge of the groomed track in town...

[lilcliffy]

So if you’re corking in polar wax for the length of the ski, you wouldn’t even need an iron huh. Trying to get into waxing without spending an arm and a leg, so this is appealing.

Just picked up an assortment of kick waxes, a scraper, and cork...

I just cork it in, and have for a few years with good success. The guys that wax it in tell me they get better durability. Really I’m cheap and don’t want to waste wax by using the iron. Now I’ve been doing it long enough that I have a system, that works for me.

Corking, buffing a grip waxed base will always work.
And the beauty of it is that you can refresh it restore it in the wilderness without any heat other than the friction of the cork!

I use the iron to prep the base- because it is faster- a bit easier to get a thin even layer- and I do think- at least in my limited experience- that the wax retention is better.

One trick for best results with corking- keep your grip-kick wax in the freezer. I also get better application and corking results when the skis are cool to cold as well.

My experience- natural cork works best withouts any moisture (i.e. snow) in the mix- synthetic cork works better when their is snow/moisture involved (i.e. I use a synthetic cork on the tur).

[lilcliffy]

Lilcliffy writes in his kick wax tutorial in the Telewiki section that use of polar was traditional method in Quebec.

I haven't glide waxed in almost 20 years. Polar is my glide wax.

It's what we did with wooden skis, that's where I got it. I think I'm the first one to promote it here, and people were skeptical.

For sure, the tip-to-tail Polar works great in a lot of scenarios. I didn't grow up skiing, I'm a wide open, flat-land, southern Saskatchewan farm boy. Moving to Alberta for college and meeting my wife is what introduced me to Nordic touring. Her parents (now 65) and grandparents (now 85) toured extensively in the Alberta Rockies. And they are in the same camp - always waxed tip-to-tail Polar and then apply wax of the day underfoot. Same story - it harkens back to how they used to prep their wooden touring skis and they carried it over to their synthetic skis in the 80's.

Where this really didn't work for me was when my wife and I were living up in northeastern Alberta. Often skiing in -25 to -35 degree C temps, no sun softening or moisture in the snow, crystals were sharp and hard. When Polar is the wax of the day, you're shuffling. The best I could find for somewhat reasonable glide at those temps was hot waxing tips and tails with Swix CH4 (their polar glide wax; extremely hard, terrible to get it to melt/spread and even worse to scrape, avoid if possible haha).

Now that we're back down into the west-central country, this technique likely becomes more relevant for us again. But at the same time, I don't mind hot waxing either (you know, as long as it's not CH4).

How do you find the very hard glife wax (e.g. CH4) works when the snow warms up?
Even in the heart of my winter- with months of -20 to -30C weather- we get regular warm ups (which seems to be increasing in its frequency and extremity)
I have personally found that very hard glide wax does not work in warm wet snow- so I either need to strip the base and move to softer glide wax- have a different ski prepped for warmer snow- or simply wait out the warm up, just to return to the deep freeze...
Perhaps your winter temperatures are more stable than mine? (I would think that they would be...)

[lilcliffy]

My local touring is VERY hilly, with lots of steep climbs- I need consistent grip- and waxless scales are RARELY effective for climbing on their own (the snow is too cold and/or icy).

I meant to add here- perhaps more relevant- that kick wax alone is almost never enough grip alone to climb many of the hills on my local turs. Skiers that are only using kick wax constantly need skins on a tur.
With the extra grip of a grip-waxed base I rarely need skins at all in the heart of my winter touring.

[freedom glider]

[quote=tkarhu post_id=47814 time=1643661232 user_id=3400

Grip wax always offers some grip- even if it is not enough grip to work effectively as a kick wax.

[/quote]

wait - there is a difference b/w grip wax and kick wax?

[lilcliffy]

wait - there is a difference b/w grip wax and kick wax?

Kick wax is grip wax.
But when I use the term "kick wax" I am specifically speaking of grip wax that is chosen primarily for its grip underfoot- in the "kick zone" of the ski (whether the ski has a "wax pocket" or not).
I use hard grip wax on the entire base of my Nordic touring skis and only use softer kick wax in the kick zone as needed.
The conventional approach to kick waxing is to only apply kick wax in the kick zone.

[fisheater]

[quote=tkarhu post_id=47814 time=1643661232 user_id=3400

Grip wax always offers some grip- even if it is not enough grip to work effectively as a kick wax.

wait - there is a difference b/w grip wax and kick wax?
[/quote]

No difference, same product, just a different context of use

[lilcliffy]

My local touring is VERY hilly, with lots of steep climbs- I need consistent grip- and waxless scales are RARELY effective for climbing on their own (the snow is too cold and/or icy).

I meant to add here- perhaps more relevant- that kick wax alone is almost never enough grip alone to climb many of the hills on my local turs. Skiers that are only using kick wax constantly need skins on a tur.
With the extra grip of a grip-waxed base I rarely need skins at all in the heart of my winter touring.

And to take this thread-line further-

there have been a number of mentions on TT recently regarding using the "herring-bone" technique to get up steep slopes-

I don't believe in using the herring-bone technique-

as a Nordic skier that is almost always on backcountry snow- the herring-bone technique is impractical, inefficient, and can be completely futile (e.g. very deep snow)-

if I find myself needing to use the herring-bone technique on a BC tour, from my perspective I need to change something- add more or softer kick wax/put on a skin, etc.

with a grip-waxed base I almost never need to use the herring-bone technique- even with my longish stiff touring skis (e.g. 210 Gamme/210 Amundsen/210 E99/205 Ingstad).

[lowangle al]

Kick wax or grip wax it's all the same to me. I think using different terms can be confusing to beginners.

Polar as a glide wax doesn't last long, maybe just 5 to 7 miles in normal snow. Luckily it can be reapplied in just a few minutes on the trail. It will wear off your tails first, especially on rockered skis, so you may only have to do the tails if you are in a hurry and don't want to get left behind. Wax in general wears off quicker if you are doing a lot turns like I do, so your mileage may vary.