Agile Ski

[Lo-Fi]

...
And what about breakable crust? Can the plastics drive the skis through breakable crust?

…Shorten up for agility and increase width to the extent that you need the surface area for float.
At >90mm underfoot, I've found that sort of width makes breakable crust pretty easy,..

Exactly. >90mm is the ski most likely to rise up and plane/float on the surface of dreaded breakable crust. If breaking through is unavoidable, it likely remains the most turnable of skis. This is the thing with a short wide ski - add a little side-cut and some rocker/round flex, and all of a sudden, all other things being equal, the ski rises and planes more readily and that allows for an often amazing pivoting effect, where very little edging/arcing of the ski is necessary. It becomes less linear and more rotational on the (downhill) horizontal plane. It’s like sking on a “magic saucer”:

Uncannily similar are short, wide, rockered and flat bottomed hulls that allow whitewater kayaks to plane and spin, with very little edging, while surfing down a wave too:

Some (maybe greatgt) will say that a longer, narrower ski cuts through crust and gives the stability of a strongly linear flow, but the turning can only really be very long arcs (which of course can be fun in its own way!), but isn’t what I’d call agile.

[Lo-Fi]

…And what about breakable crust? Can the plastics drive the skis through breakable crust?

… but you do need a beefier boot to really take advantage of the width. The T4 + light cable combo… would do the trick.

If T4s can’t drive the skis through breakable crust then surely no NNN BC boot will. I’ve tried all sorts of NNN BC boots, here are a few of my boots(!):

I also have some Alpina Alaskas, which I had out the other day in crummy, crusty thin snow conditions. They only have a fraction of the torsional & lateral stability and power of an Excursion/T4, even when I normally ski the plastic boots with an “unbuckled” top:

This is why I’m skeptical of even the reportedly very stiff Transnordic. I mean, I can forward flex the T4 in my hands, but not torsionally or laterally, which I think is what is really critical for driving a ski, especially in challenging conditions or for maximum agility. At least none of the NNN BC boots I’ve tried, come close to plastics.

[lowangle al]

I agree with Lo-fi on the T4s.

[Lo-Fi]

… I have a pro deal with Scarpa through work that would get me the T4s at a great deal. Then I could keep my Excursions for flats. Curious though: just how uncomfortable are plastic boots the flats when you're touring in to your turns? Say you have a 2 mile ski just to get to the hills. Is this still realistic with the setup you've described above?

T4 + light cable combo… sure sounds like it would do the trick.

In principle, if you are out touring to find turns then this is more than realistic and does make sense.

Of course, actual fit and comfort of the boot is vital, but for that you’ll just have to see and experiment until things work. I have Intuition liners, that I cannibalized from a pair of $20 used snowboard boots, in my Excursions/T4s and I’ve never had a more comfortable boot, and it even dropped the weight per boot down to 1200g which is getting close to Alaska BC weight, yet with far more downhill performance.

In terms of covering distance, another beauty of this type of setup is that while flatline trail traveling is not fast, you begin to see the journey quite differently. Often on an approach to steeper destinations, I will leave the packed trail aside for the softer, quieter, smoother untracked snow adjacent, and poke around all the micro-terrain I would otherwise pass by. Every dip, gully, drop, slight clearing or dubious open-ish line in the bush, becomes an opportunity to drop a knee and get a turn or two or three in. This totally hones your backcountry turning skills too.

The waxless bases are great for exploring too, although its also great to have some grip wax handy and/or short or long skins when you have an extended climb.

If you have a pro deal on T4s, I have a hard time imagining that you won’t come to value them.

Here’s the type of cable binding I find super easy in and out of, and on a minimal tension is great for touring and turning:

Think Riva, Cobra, 412, 3-pin Hardwire (I find the 3-pin Traverse a little restrictive), G3…

[lilcliffy]

While I don't disagree with anything that Lo-Fi is promoting here (I agree with it all in principle)-
(I have a pari of Koms as well- and LOVE them- for downhill-focused glade skiing (Lo-Fi's videos could easily be recored in the hardwood glades/hills of NB)

@ianjt Are you looking for a more agile XC ski- or are you looking for a downhill ski?

As stated above- everything being equal- a shorter ski is definitely more agile than a longer one.

The other "dimensions" to consider are geometry and flex pattern.

The shorter the effective edge- the more agile the ski-
Significant rocker in the shovel and tail will make a ski more agile.

For example- my 205 Sverdrup is more agile than my 205 Nansen (I bet a 205 Sverdrup has the same effective edge as a 185 Nansen...)

For example- a Voile V6 has a shorter turn radius than a Voile Vector- despite the V6 being wider underfoot and having less sidecut...

Camber and flex also influence ski agility- especially at slow speeds on moderate terrain.

You mention the FT62-
I don't know anything about the current FT62- but I can say that the older FT62 performs best at speed- when you can really open them up and allow the wide rockered shovel to plane-
the older FT62 is not suited for making the smeary, slarvy "flying saucer turns" that Lo-Fi describes-
With a soft Nordic touring boot, I personally find the Sverdrup to be more "agile" than the older FT62.

And the redesigned FT62 is supposed to be stiffer and more cambered...

[ianjt]

Thanks all for your input. I think I am looking to separate myself from a traditional XC ski. I really like what I see from the Voiles and Kom. The gifs posted of lo-fi snapping turns through trees is what I am looking for. I have a gentle rolling touring setup. Now I am looking to make quick turns and have stability underneath to descend tight conditions confidently - changing direction quickly, hopping off of obstacles, etc. All low-angle of course. But then I need the ability to hike back up the hill just descended in order to ski down the other side of it! Point being, everything I have seen from these skis with plastics and cable bindings are what I am looking for.

Unfortunately, Altai is out of Koms and are not sure when they'll have more in stock and Voile's prices are stout - maybe out of range for this year; I just bought a new mountain bike, after all. I have been perusing second-hand shops nearby but have had little luck.

Are there any other skis matching the capabilities of these that I should look for?

[lilcliffy]

Well- I don't know what to say-
I want a V6 bad- have for years-
I am very happy with the Kom though.

[fisheater]

Thanks all for your input. I think I am looking to separate myself from a traditional XC ski. I really like what I see from the Voiles and Kom. The gifs posted of lo-fi snapping turns through trees is what I am looking for. I have a gentle rolling touring setup. Now I am looking to make quick turns and have stability underneath to descend tight conditions confidently - changing direction quickly, hopping off of obstacles, etc. All low-angle of course. But then I need the ability to hike back up the hill just descended in order to ski down the other side of it! Point being, everything I have seen from these skis with plastics and cable bindings are what I am looking for.

Unfortunately, Altai is out of Koms and are not sure when they'll have more in stock and Voile's prices are stout - maybe out of range for this year; I just bought a new mountain bike, after all. I have been perusing second-hand shops nearby but have had little luck.

Are there any other skis matching the capabilities of these that I should look for?

Fischer 98 & 112, and Madshus Panorama 78 & next size down, formerly Annum and Epoch are less expensive, much older designs, they are not the same, but they were designed to turn and kick and glide. The S-112 which I once skied certainly turns easily in soft snow. Alpina also makes a ski in this class, waxless base as well as similar side cut dimensions. Rossignol also has similar skis

[connyro]

and Voile's prices are stout - maybe out of range for this year...

The price of the Voiles is a bitter pill to swallow but IMO worth every penny. You will not be disappointed if you get some Vector bc or V6 bc or even the Objextive BC. I've skied the Annums, 112s and 125s as well as the Koms and I would gladly pay the extra to get the Voiles. IMO they are that much better

[fisheater]

and Voile's prices are stout - maybe out of range for this year...

The price of the Voiles is a bitter pill to swallow but IMO worth every penny. You will not be disappointed if you get some Vector bc or V6 bc or even the Objextive BC. I've skied the Annums, 112s and 125s as well as the Koms and I would gladly pay the extra to get the Voiles. IMO they are that much better

100% agree, other than I don’t know about Koms. I just offered alternatives.