Alpine Touring vs. NTN (and perhaps other options) - looking for thoughts on a new setup

[westslope]

Hey all, newly registered on the board but been a reader for a while. Quick background - I'm a long time resort skier. I'm an advanced/expert downhiller though aging knees have mellowed my terrain choices a bit. A couple years ago I bought a NNN BC setup (SBound 98s and Alpina Alaskas). I have really enjoyed this setup and last year I spent more time in the backcountry than at the resort. While I plan to continue using this setup on mellow terrain, I am a bit frustrated by the downhill limitations inherent in my setup. It doesn't help that I have no telemark background and average (at best) freehill/downhill technique.

Ultimately, I'm trying to decide between an alpine touring setup and a downhill capable NTN setup. Or maybe I just need better freehill/downhill technique? I know there are a lot of considerations here so will try to detail how I plan to use a new setup.

I'm based in Western Colorado. Smack dab between the Grand Mesa, Uncompahgre Plateau, West Elks and the San Juans. In short, I have a wide range of terrain options from steep avalanche prone terrain to relatively flat mesa top terrain and everything in between. While I would likely try some steeper terrain once in a while, my primary use would be somewhere in between. I really enjoy the exploration aspect of the sport so my ideal use would be backcountry exploration of undulating terrain. For example, I want to be able to confidently ski down a 30 degree creek drainage, explore the creek bottom and ski out and move to the next drainage with relative ease.

I have no experience with alpine touring gear or NTN gear. I suspect the downhill would be easier in AT gear and uphill easier on NTN but really not sure. Given my intended use, what would you recommend? Appreciate all thoughts

[JackO]

I would look closely at Meidjo and Lynx - the touring on the pins is just so nice. Decent chance of release too, though not guaranteed by any stretch. Better chance than on 75mm.

You could make pretty confident alpine turns on any NTN setup, but the Meidjo alpine heel is real-deal. I have that setup - it telemarks nicely and alpines really well. Having the tele/alpine option on one setup is fun, and I would argue sometimes comes in really handy in tough spots. But for new NTN/alpine compatible boots you only have Crispi with tech fittings front and back right now, although rumors are flying about what Scarpa will come out with next year or so. But options abound in the used/DIY market for boots.

[Montana St Alum]

It doesn't help that I have no telemark background and average (at best) freehill/downhill technique.

Ultimately, I'm trying to decide between an alpine touring setup and a downhill capable NTN setup. Or maybe I just need better freehill/downhill technique?


I have no experience with alpine touring gear or NTN gear. I suspect the downhill would be easier in AT gear and uphill easier on NTN but really not sure.

When you say "freehill" I think you mean "freeheel"?

I think both uphill and downhill are easier on AT gear than on NTN gear - and that's if you are adept at skiing NTN.
If you don't have a fairly solid freeheel/NTN capability, then AT is definitely easier.

The only reason to use something like NTN gear is for the enjoyment of the telemark turn.

If you want to get into more serious downhill capability on telemark gear, whether it's on NTN or on duckbill equipment, then that's a great goal. I'd get something that you can use in the resort to get competent at tele on that sort of gear. Once you feel pretty confident, then start moving to the backcountry.

I see JackO recommends Meidjo with the heel piece. I think that's a good option as well.

I use Meidjo's (but without the heel) and love them. I was not able to get a good fit or feel from Crispi boots, but my son uses them with Intuition liners and likes them. He does use the heel piece for expedition type skiing, as it can help in difficult terrain pulling a sled.

[westslope]

It doesn't help that I have no telemark background and average (at best) freehill/downhill technique.

Ultimately, I'm trying to decide between an alpine touring setup and a downhill capable NTN setup. Or maybe I just need better freehill/downhill technique?

I have no experience with alpine touring gear or NTN gear. I suspect the downhill would be easier in AT gear and uphill easier on NTN but really not sure.

When you say "freehill" I think you mean "freeheel"?

I think both uphill and downhill are easier on AT gear than on NTN gear - and that's if you are adept at skiing NTN.
If you don't have a fairly solid freeheel/NTN capability, then AT is definitely easier.

The only reason to use something like NTN gear is for the enjoyment of the telemark turn.

If you want to get into more serious downhill capability on telemark gear, whether it's on NTN or on duckbill equipment, then that's a great goal. I'd get something that you can use in the resort to get competent at tele on that sort of gear. Once you feel pretty confident, then start moving to the backcountry.

I see JackO recommends Meidjo with the heel piece. I think that's a good option as well.

I use Meidjo's (but without the heel) and love them. I was not able to get a good fit or feel from Crispi boots, but my son uses them with Intuition liners and likes them. He does use the heel piece for expedition type skiing, as it can help in difficult terrain pulling a sled.

Oops, yes, I meant freeheel.

I'm not familiar with Meidjo will take a look. You're hitting at my ultimate question: when in varied backcountry terrain with low to medium angle descent and ascent, is there any reason not to use AT gear other than cost and inability to telemark turn? I love the simplicity of my BC NNN setup, it's just so limited on the descent.

I'm hoping to replicate that simplicity and capability on the flats and ascent but boost capability on the descent. Trying trying to determine whether there is an option worth looking at outside of AT. Like I say above, I don't have a telemark background so losing the ability to perform a telemark turn is not an issue for me.

[Montana St Alum]

[/quote]
I don't have a telemark background so losing the ability to perform a telemark turn is not an issue for me.
[/quote]

This seems key, to me.

You have a touring set up for when you want your heel free all the time, so AT would round that out.
You're not particularly interested (it seems) in pursuing telemark, as a way of skiing.
From a practical standpoint, you can use AT gear at the resort as well as in the back country.

I think I'd be inclined to get a good AT set up and go with that.

Although an NTN style telemark set up would be more capable than what you currently have, I expect you would be much more limited on the downhill on telemark (NTN or duckbill) than on AT gear.

I just weighed my Tx Pro boot in a 26.5 and it was 1810 grams. I'm pretty sure an AT boot would generally run at least a pound lighter PER BOOT!
In fact, the DynafitSpeed Alpine Touring Boot's claimed weight is 1050 grams!

Meidjo's are light at 460 grams per binding.
Dynafit tech bindings are under 300 grams.

That saves 4 pounds. Sh*t man, sign me up!

[westslope]

Appreciate the feedback. I do hope to continue improving my telemark skills in my current setup. Just lack the skill/confidence to take on steeper descents with my current setup. Thinking AT may be the way to go for now.

Thanks again

[turnfarmer]

If going straight up and straight down AT is 1000x better. But for up/down/allaround it is missing the medium level of control of NNnBC/3pin feel.

With AT the free pivot and ease of movement with the boots in climb mode are so free that rolling terrain is like skiing in sneakers. Also the rigid sole is a little robotic when not going straight up/down..

I haven’t skied NTN but the current boots are way overkill for rolling terrain. And as most telemarkers are looking for the “Active” I wonder it the bindings would be a little too restrictive. Does anyone have any input on Lynx Meidjo for this application?

Unfortunately there are no real options in between.

If going NTN I’d wait for the new rumored Scarpa boot or go down the rabbit hole of old F!/F# boots with the Bolton Duckbutts.

The ATK Newmark with a heel piece would have been a good option but it’s off the market.

The new Rottefella system had promise but the switch to free pivot is too clunky and it needs a T3 type boot.

If buying now it’s probably best to just go AT.

Sorry if I added confusion. I’ve been using AT for this use andI just wanted to share the downsides.

[bauerb]

if you are not intending do make tele turns, going with an AT setup is a no brainer. you can get lighter boots with far greater ROM which will make your touring more enjoyable, or at least a bit easier...

[John_XCD]

I am a bit frustrated by the downhill limitations inherent in my setup.

I really enjoy the exploration aspect of the sport so my ideal use would be backcountry exploration of undulating terrain. For example, I want to be able to confidently ski down a 30 degree creek drainage, explore the creek bottom and ski out and move to the next drainage with relative ease.

Agree if you want to go for stiff plastic boots and aren't married to telemark, AT is a better choice (you can still get voile fishscale skis if you want to hike longer flat stretches without skins).

That said-- I disagree that your current S98/NNNBC alaska set up has inherent limitations in the terrain you're interested in exploring. You can get a lot of performance out of this gear with the appropriate technique (as long as snow quality is acceptable). Check out the telehiro videos. Of course it takes some effort to figure out how to tele ski the fall line on that gear, and stiff plastic boots are going to make this type of descending easier/more precise/more confident (more "fun" would be debatable). But if the main goal is exploring undulating terrain outside of avalanche territory, it is not too hard to traverse your way down with kick turns if needed. There is a freedom of movement when on XCD gear that is really conducive to "exploring" that you lose on AT or other up/down focused gear. Ex: ski down a short pitch, cross a meadow, realize you don't like the look of the next pitch, traverse a few hundred yards until you find something more to your liking-- all without stopping to tinker with gear. The norm currently though is AT equipment even for this type of skiing.

[Montana St Alum]

Yeah, I think the real answer might be an incremental increase in equipment capability short of NTN. Slightly higher/stiffer boots, maybe something like a 3-pin cable binding.

And, improving skills.

The problem for the OP seems to be a combination of knee damage and a lack of interest in working on the turn skills necessary.

Westslope, I apologize if I got that wrong, but a commitment to improving skills would really be the answer, if your knee health allows it. The telemark turn, while athletically demanding, just isn't that hard to master.