Kicker skins VS waxless base back-country skis

[TeleHarry]

Until I figure out how to quit my job and move, my "back-country" telemark skiing is limited to local resorts and a small West Virginia cross-country place called "White Grass". It's an old, failed alpine resort that has given over to cross-country skiing trails and climbing up the former down-hill slopes and skiing back down. There are no lifts any more.
I have been using my own Rossignol back-country skis as well as various other rental waxless skis for basically walking up the slopes and skiing back down.
My questions:
--are there some waxless skis that are a lot better for ascending than others, or do they all perform about the same? It seems like I need to put the skins on too often.
--I really like my NON-waxless skis for coming down---MUCH better than any waxless skis I have used. It seems that no matter what brands I try, the designers spent so much effort making the skis light that they feel like...crap...coming back down; they feel "hollow", have no damping affect, and are soul-less, if you know what I mean. Are there any skis that feel more "normal" and "fun" (like good alpine skis), but are still good at ascending?
--I have been wondering if I should just buy a set of kicker skins and use them on non-waxless skis (you know--regular skis), and forget the fish scales completely. Can you glide with kicker skins? I occasionaly need to throw full skins on my waxless skis to make it up some pitches, and they definitely don't glide much.
Any help would be appreciated. I'm new to this stuff. Thanks.

[Raventele]

No , positive patterns grip better than negative..And Alpina rules as far as fishscales go - pos or neg..
Fishscales "hang" up to about 15 degrees or so (my guess educated) on the down, beyond that I doubt you can tell in terms of resistance/friction..
K and G on skins ? Sucks basically..Just tolerable for climbing around for turns..Skins for XCD ? Puh

[Dirtbag]

My Alpinas out climb my Rossi BC 125,s but they drag way more on the down. I love the way my 125,s ski and don't mind putting on skins if I have to. There an excelent comprimise. Kickers work great if you aren't Yo-yoing and don't mind the downtime of applying and removing. There pretty easy to do with your skis still on.

[TeleHarry]

My Alpinas out climb my Rossi BC 125,s but they drag way more on the down. I love the way my 125,s ski and don't mind putting on skins if I have to. The're an excellent compromise. Kickers work great if you aren't Yo-yoing and don't mind the downtime of applying and removing. There pretty easy to do with your skis still on.

I actually have the Rossi BC 125s, and they don't impress me with their climbing ability. My wife can leave me in the dust on her Madshus skis on the way up. I don't do much (any) meadow-skipping, as I have heard it called. It's usually up, then down. Maybe a few short glides just to access different approaches.
Coming down, I love the way my old K2 Work Stinx feel. To me, the BC 125s feel like crap compared to them--very stiff, hollow, unforgiving, and VERY draggy. Hey, I can ski the heck out of them, because I have to, but they're not...fun.
There must be a better alternative, like a standard Work Stinks-like ski but with a climbing base. That's really what I'm looking for. That is, if such skis exist. Do they?

[Raventele]

^^ Cut a pattern on you fav ski..or get great at grip wax and route selection .

[Johnny]

My X-Terrains climbed better than my Guides. My Epochs climb better than the X-Terrains and my 10th MTNs. My Glittertinds climb better than the Epochs.

The basic rule is that the better a ski can climb, the worse it will be downhill. The Glittertinds climb much faster than the Epochs, but they're not as fun on the downhill. But the important thing to keep in mind here is camber. A double camber light ski will get you up the hill faster, but will be harder to turn on the descent. I think that's what makes you dream of a real downhill ski...

The X-Terrains are single camber skis, like a normal alpine ski. So maybe it would be the best for you... I didn't like them personally.

Kicker skins are really cool. If downhill is your priority, I would totally go for kickers. I don't use full skins anymore, they're just too heavy and boring. They feel like a ball and chain to me. I would say kicker skins are about 10-20% more efficient than the best waxless pattern. Just put them on your favorite downhill skis and have fun! You will still have to zig-zag your way up like if you were using fishscales, but you will still be faster than the guys with their fatties and long heavy skins.

They don't glide very well but you can keep them on your skis if you want. But they're so easy and fast to remove that it's not really worth keeping them on...

Until I figure out how to quit my job and move

You don't have to move. In fact, the real challenge, the real goal in this world is to make the best of what we have, where we are. It's just too easy to go elsewhere. Just appreciate what you have, and see how you can make it better and even more fun...!

As for the job, maybe this book could help:

[gfwp]

Skins in backcountry are way, way, way better than waxless; soo much that often also waxless skis have to be skinned.

The best solutions are:

-Integrated Skin systems like most Asnes ski, or like the brand new Fischer E99 Easyskin.
-Madshus Intelligrip skins: really good product. I have several pairs of them. Rub on some glidewax before use!
-Grip wax knowledge for flat approach on compact snow.

Remember that skins/short skins can be removed; you cannot scrape off the waxless base
each time you need a better glide...

Regards

P.S: Waxless is (almost) NEVER better than a good waxed ski or a skinned one, The only condition where you may wish to have waxless is on spring melting snow when it gets really warm (a.k.a waterskiing conditions)

[MikeK]

As for the job, maybe this book could help:

Does the book explain how and why a horse can ride a bicycle?

[Teleman]

All depends on conditions....Skins can take you straight up....But....this old boy doesn't like to go straight up....We tend to contours and use terrain to slide up a hill...zigging and zagging....For that kind of use wax is the best and skinny double camber is even better....Bones work well as stated.... usually are best in spring conditions but on the down in fast powder they play great...Last couple of days......Bones on and headed to the Northeast Highlands....16-20+ inches of powder on top....crust....then unconsolidated cement....The Rebounds were to short and constantly broke in and under.....Gads it was a slog....Headed down on moderate treed slope...Under and another slog straight down....no turns...Yuck! Yesterday lower angle saw where Telekid had left some Rossi BC 90 tracks....looking good but could see he had a speed problem...Didn't get far from his up track....I had the 205 e99's on a hunch that length was the ticket....Tried to wax up but had only POLAR white wax....bummer....It worked!!!!!Low angle down and the 99's ran free and fast with many out of the up track long arcs....Never went in...could feel at times the crust but nothing but speedy long arcs....First time this year the old man's tracks out tracked Telekid's...A very good feeling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TM

[gfwp]

Bones work well as stated.... usually are best in spring conditions but on the down in fast powder they play great...Last couple of days.

Fully agree.

But I have to report a really good experience leaving the Intelligrip Skins on in fast powder. Similar to a fishscale, but no lousy effects.

Regards