Klister?

[red_pine]

Hi Everybody. I am new to using grip wax on skis, having used fishscales my whole life. I have been using the system advocated by lilcliffy and many others on this forum: ironing polar or green into the entire base, and then applying wax of the day to the glide zone. The system has worked well on days when conditions were good for hard wax.

I am wondering how to incorporate klister into this system for icy conditions. There is a lot of adivce on the internet about klister, much of it contradictory and oriented more toward racing, so it is hard to know where to begin. Is universal klister adequate, or do I really need multiple klisters? Is it a good idea to apply hard wax over the klister to prevent icing, and if so, under what conditions should this be done? Does the ironed in polar wax serve as a good binder for klister, or do I need base klister? If I have already applied multiple layers of hard wax, do I need to scrape those off before applying the klister? Any advice or input that you have would be appreciated.

[lowangle al]

Good questions Red Pine, I'm gonna add one of my own.
I've been thinking about having a dedicated klister ski and pulling it out when needed. Will the klister hold up for weeks in storage when not needed. I know with wax I have used a ski with wax from the previous season.

[fgd135]

In Colorado, for trail and backcountry skiing, I generally only use Swix Universal Klister (K22) if I need to use klister. It works really well, in my experience; good kick and glide in mixed warm/refrozen icy granular and warm wet snow. I have very rarely ever felt the need to use a silver klister over it to reduce icing, as is commonly done when using the warm red klisters.

Swix blue ice klister and Rode's cold ice klisters have limited use but can work well in cold refrozen and very icy/windblown conditions when hard waxes just won't work at all...
A tube of klister will last as long in storage as a hard wax, esp. of you keep it sealed in a ziplock bag.
Hint: Carrying the klister tube, in the ziplock bag, inside a plastic sandwich box along with the paddle and a small bottle of talcum powder for klister removal works well and prevents nasty klister messes...

There is no need for a binder wax under klister, but klister can easily be applied over hard waxes, glide waxes, or a base layer like polar or special green. I remove hard kick waxes in the wax pocket if I can, because multiple layers add drag.

Do not apply a huge amount of klister, start with only a single thin bead down the length of the wax pocket, or even slightly shorter, on each side of the tracking groove and use the paddle to spread it very evenly. Let the ski base cool out of the sun, if there is any sun, before you put it on the snow, or the klister might glaze over with ice. After skiing a few minute or more, if you need to, add a bit more further towards the tip rather than adding a second layer.

I personally find it very difficult to apply a hard wax, even a softer one like violet, or red, over klister. That's more of a racing technique for classic tracks, than a practical backcountry technique. The only way I know of to accomplish that is to radically cool off the klister on the ski base, and at the same time warm up the hard wax enough to soften it to apply to the klister layer without pulling up the klister; and then re-cooling the base. Possible to do this by sticking the ski in a snow bank while you warm up the hard wax under your jacket for several minutes; quickly wipe the water off the klister and apply the very warm hard wax by dabbing it on the klister, then rub it in with a cork, or your fingers...
To me, it makes more sense to remove the klister and then rewax with a hard wax.

[bauerb]

its been decades since I used Kilster, but as I recall, Klister is the "gift that keeps giving". its longevity never seemed to the issue, getting rid of it was. torches, sticky rags. I'm pretty sure klister would be good for trapping rodents. and you've never really had a true klister experience until you get it in your hair.

[red_pine]

In Colorado, for trail and backcountry skiing, I generally only use Swix Universal Klister (K22) if I need to use klister. It works really well, in my experience; good kick and glide in mixed warm/refrozen icy granular and warm wet snow. I have very rarely ever felt the need to use a silver klister over it to reduce icing, as is commonly done when using the warm red klisters.

Swix blue ice klister and Rode's cold ice klisters have limited use but can work well in cold refrozen and very icy/windblown conditions when hard waxes just won't work at all...
A tube of klister will last as long in storage as a hard wax, esp. of you keep it sealed in a ziplock bag.
Hint: Carrying the klister tube, in the ziplock bag, inside a plastic sandwich box along with the paddle and a small bottle of talcum powder for klister removal works well and prevents nasty klister messes...

There is no need for a binder wax under klister, but klister can easily be applied over hard waxes, glide waxes, or a base layer like polar or special green. I remove hard kick waxes in the wax pocket if I can, because multiple layers add drag.

Do not apply a huge amount of klister, start with only a single thin bead down the length of the wax pocket, or even slightly shorter, on each side of the tracking groove and use the paddle to spread it very evenly. Let the ski base cool out of the sun, if there is any sun, before you put it on the snow, or the klister might glaze over with ice. After skiing a few minute or more, if you need to, add a bit more further towards the tip rather than adding a second layer.

I personally find it very difficult to apply a hard wax, even a softer one like violet, or red, over klister. That's more of a racing technique for classic tracks, than a practical backcountry technique. The only way I know of to accomplish that is to radically cool off the klister on the ski base, and at the same time warm up the hard wax enough to soften it to apply to the klister layer without pulling up the klister; and then re-cooling the base. Possible to do this by sticking the ski in a snow bank while you warm up the hard wax under your jacket for several minutes; quickly wipe the water off the klister and apply the very warm hard wax by dabbing it on the klister, then rub it in with a cork, or your fingers...
To me, it makes more sense to remove the klister and then rewax with a hard wax.

This is an excellent answer for my questions. Thank you very much. I do have one other question: will universal klister work in very cold icy conditions (say, 10 degrees Fahrenheit), or is ice klister necessary? Can anything bad happen from using universal klister in such cold conditions?

[fisheater]

I use warm (red) klister and have (blue) ice klister. It’s pretty easy to determine which one to use.

Al, I tried to keep klister on a ski. Temps were consistent between 28 and maybe 35. My pickup has a cap, and I had the skis wedged to protect the edges, and so they didn’t move. I had the skis turned bases up. I only had one layer of klister and it was thin, and only in the wax pocket. How it spread I don’t know. I Wil not leave it on skis again. Baby powder and Goo gone cleaned up the mess, but it was a MESS!

[athabascae]

Good thread; good info. Thanks.

I agree that klister has its place.

I use either Swix universal or blue "ice" klister as conditions warrant, often with good results. No experience with red or others. Probably fine with just universal, really.

I keep it pretty simple. No binders or top layers. Thin layer in wax pocket only, as noted above.

[lowangle al]

I use warm (red) klister and have (blue) ice klister. It’s pretty easy to determine which one to use.

Al, I tried to keep klister on a ski. Temps were consistent between 28 and maybe 35. My pickup has a cap, and I had the skis wedged to protect the edges, and so they didn’t move. I had the skis turned bases up. I only had one layer of klister and it was thin, and only in the wax pocket. How it spread I don’t know. I Wil not leave it on skis again. Baby powder and Goo gone cleaned up the mess, but it was a MESS!

Thanks Bob, I kinda didn't think it would hold up like wax. I hope it didn't get all over your truck.

[lilcliffy]

Excellent thread and excellent knowledge/experience.

I use the Universal and the ice klister.

In mid-winter I always test the grip-glide of my kicker skin before I move to klister.
Klister is easy to remove- with powder or paper towel (especially towel + heat).
Kilster bonds very well to a grip waxed base.

DO NOT put a skin over klister!
"My motha put my skin over klista once- once!"

[dhdaines]

Blue klister is really good in typical Ontario/Quebec conditions (refrozen/hardened mix of snow, rain, sleet and freezing rain, temperatures from -15 to -5C). Basically if you find yourself rewaxing with Blue Extra every 2km or so then you might want blue klister instead.

The problem with it is that it is pretty hard so you have to keep it close to your body at all times in order to apply it "in the field" and you have to work quickly. Also the tube has a tendency to burst open at the wrong end (you can imagine how I found this out). As others said, apply in a thin layer, otherwise it will "migrate" toward the tail of your ski where it won't do you any good at all.

I found it easy to apply hard wax over it, again, keep your wax close to your body, at -5C the blue klister will harden up pretty quickly.

I feel like if I were ever tempted to use universal klister (between -2 and +15C, granular snow and ice) then I might as well use kicker skins instead, but I'm sure it glides better.