Would you screw kicker skins directly into the ski base?

[trite]

My idea was precuting a rectangle in the base of the ski and then glueing the skin in that hole, maybe scew it too.
I dont know if you understand me as my English is shity.
I want to do that on an old alpine ski with 75mm bindings as my old asnes skis dont have enough grip for the typicall terrain here in the pyrenees( not flat at all)
Have you done or seen somethin similar?

English is fine! Sounds like a similar idea to the one described above, would love to see it.

[trite]

Trite, just saw your more indepth design explanation.

I think the the insert idea is cool, but I have another simpler, and what appears to me, more solid concept.

Drill holes only slightly larger than your chosen screws. Lather the inside of the holes with epoxy to make them waterproof. Place you plate arrangement with pre drilled holes on the skis, pass the screw through and place a locking nut and tighten on the other side. Voila. I'd feel more confident the screws would not come loose that way. If a screw loosens in your setup, you either loose it without noticing, increase drag or worse yet, catch it on a rock or branch and tear the insert out of the ski. (As the BD plaste is not flush, it will flex a little as you ski and this may be enough to loosen the screws from the inserts).

This is exactly why I made this thread! Such a better, simpler idea.

I really wonder if that's not what's going on here in Borge Ousland's 96/97 Antarctica expedition. You can barely see them, but he has two bolts on the top side of the ski. (No, not part of the binding.)

[trite]

Please tell us more about the location your are aimeing for, or at least the snow conditions you expect most. This will have an incidence base/skin prep.

Southern Ontario / Northern Minnesota in February, 3 to 4 weeks. 400km. Big, windswept lakes. Sastrugi and crust. Small lakes with deeeep snow, probably still some slush underneath the snow. Steep, rocky portages in the bush with fluffy powder snow. Lots of slipping. I can do everything with these USGI though, f*ck snowshoes!

Just want to have rock solid kicker skins that I don't have to worry about.

On some of the bigger lakes with a lighter pulk I'll probably rip off the skins and try full length waxing, like you mentioned.

I know you're probably gonna tell me to get new skis for this trip just to be safe. Not happening! Love these skis, and no issues so far.

I assumed you were going to glue the skins to the ski AND screw them in, as was often done for polar expeditions a while back. They even did this with 3/4 length skins as their pulka could be very heavy.

The cool thing about glueing and screwing is to do without the plate, which can be quite a drag (pun intended) on hard abrasive snow.

I'm debating whether to do this or your screw + nut idea. I just don't like the idea of glueing and screwing (without inserts). The skis basically become skin only skis. Can you get super glue off with mineral spirits? Then you still have those ugly screw holes. Fill in with epoxy later on? If I were tossing the skis at the end, I guess I wouldn't care.

[bgregoire]

Trite, your project is now becoming clearer to me.

As you are not off on some crazy polar expedition, I agree that a no glue solution is perhaps better. Then the front plate makes sense. I'm sure you can come up with a lower profile solution than the BD one though. Try it out. I'd go the screw and nut solution though (a u bolt is another solution i have seen). Nice to see those older pictures from Ousland, as can be seen, this is an oldschool solution. The market has adjusted of course!

I think the Asnes USGI are darn tough so they will hold.

Depending on your craftmanship, you might not even need to fill in the holes after your expedition. Or if you do, epoxy would be your friend.

Another idea for the hole is the fit it with a glued stainless steel sleeve. Might be more durable and safer still for the ski. Might be overkill though.

[Whiteout]

Well I have never handled those kicker skins, and never done polar expeditions...but dream of them!

Here's a notion. The BD metal looks affixed to the strap in its middle. You could screw IT to the ski at the front of the curvature with flathead SS screws as mentioned (with counter-sink to metal if thick enough). Since you are considering base excavation, you could narrow that metal piece (and taper the skin behind it) and place its leading edge into a trench you carve in the ptex (vertical face facing rear, long slope facing tip). That would nestle and shelter the leading metal edge as well at screw it, and give you one single no-wax pattern on your base.

There is also the notion of fortifying the leading edge of a screwed-on skin with epoxy. Composite. Guessing it would last longer than plain skin as an "icebreaker."

[trite]

Well I have never handled those kicker skins, and never done polar expeditions...but dream of them!

Here's a notion. The BD metal looks affixed to the strap in its middle. You could screw IT to the ski at the front of the curvature with flathead SS screws as mentioned (with counter-sink to metal if thick enough). Since you are considering base excavation, you could narrow that metal piece (and taper the skin behind it) and place its leading edge into a trench you carve in the ptex (vertical face facing rear, long slope facing tip). That would nestle and shelter the leading metal edge as well at screw it, and give you one single no-wax pattern on your base.

There is also the notion of fortifying the leading edge of a screwed-on skin with epoxy. Composite. Guessing it would last longer than plain skin as an "icebreaker."

Well damn, this is definitely a fully integrated skin solution. Don't know if I have the knowhow to do it, though. I'm also looking for the simplest solution. Which, honestly, at this point, still might be just to leave the skins as they are, strap and all, and just bring a backup pair.

@bgregoire: @Whiteout brings up a point that I was going to post last night -- the BD steel plate is probably not thick enough to reliably countersink, the depth/angle of the countersink screw is too much. There's a chance that a "flat 100 degree undercut head screw" would work for this thinner metal?

But there's the added problem of the steel plate being curved. Can't really countersink a curve? I also don't think I want to flatten the plate at all. Since the plate is so thin, I would also have to countersink the ski base. Starting to get complicated. That curve would keep the screw head from making contact with the ski base.

I also think the curved plate does a better job driving the leading edge into the ski base, rather than a flat steel plate. As pointed out by @Baaahb

As you may have seen, the plate clog problem can be reduced by making the front of the plate slant more into the ski by adding a slight thickness to the back of the plate. This has worked for me.

My main question:
If I can't countersink, what screw head do I use to minimize drag under the plate? Or am I overthinking this?

[trite]

Another idea for the hole is the fit it with a glued stainless steel sleeve. Might be more durable and safer still for the ski. Might be overkill though.

BTW, I really like this idea. Overkill, maybe, but nice and clean. So grateful for your suggestions! Hope this thread inspires other rebel USGI skiers that want a robust kicker skin solution.

[bgregoire]

I also think the curved plate does a better job driving the leading edge into the ski base, rather than a flat steel plate. As pointed out by @Baaahb

As you may have seen, the plate clog problem can be reduced by making the front of the plate slant more into the ski by adding a slight thickness to the back of the plate. This has worked for me.

My main question:
If I can't countersink, what screw head do I use to minimize drag under the plate? Or am I overthinking this?

About the courve issue. That curve makes sens to me only in the strap-on design. The Plate, skin and straps need to be joined by rivets (which takes room) and the entire systems somewhat flimsily attached to the ski (so somewhat loose).

Going forward with a nut and bolt solution, you have access to a world of better options as your loose the rivets, the straps and you have a bomber solution.

I'd ditch the BD thing entirely, find better skins and make you own plate that corresponds more precisely to the bolt to be used. a little cruve up front over the "skinned" skin might be a plus. A tight connection will prevent snow from getting stuck there.

[trite]

I'd ditch the BD thing entirely, find better skins and make you own plate that corresponds more precisely to the bolt to be used. a little cruve up front over the "skinned" skin might be a plus. A tight connection will prevent snow from getting stuck there.

You're right. Just make my own. I'll research steel plate thickness and see what can be countersink. Just don't want a honking big thick piece of steel underfoot, kinda defeats the point.

What's the best skin for my purpose, and where to get it? (If I want something in a narrower width than what's offered, I can just trim the width, right?)

This also has me reconsidering some of the Fischer Easy Skin type solutions offered above.

What's Asnes' rationale for a plate? It seems like more drag and more resistance on where the skin meets the plate. I know these skins do fine on polar expeditions and I haven't read anything about the skin ripping from the plate, but the Fischer system seems a lot more robust.

[trite]

For anyone following along, you don't need to countersink the metal plate. You just dimple it. Then it doesn't really matter the thickness of the steel plate -- you can go quite thin. I'll probably try 18 gauge stainless steel and use the flat 100 degree undercut head screw.

Might have to give the plate a *slight* curve to keep the dimple from interfering with the ski base and allow the plate to sit a little more flush on the leading edge.