need help with new NTN setup

[bauerb]

wow. talk about a blast from the past. let me start by saying that I was active on this site about 10 years ago. I had to create a new username today because I have no idea what my old username was, or even the email addy I used. 10 years ago seems like forever.

So I have been tele skiing since I was about 15yo, so lets call it 30+ years on tele skis. I have not had the need to purchase new tele gear in about 15+ years. I currently have a pair of yellow Crispi 4 buckle 75M boots( I don't recall the model name), I ski 168cm Rossi Sickbirds mounted with Bomber Bishop bindings. those models probably sound like antiques now, but its a rugged setup that I liked for many years. I only ski lift served trails. the setup has served me well on bumps and steeps from NJ to Blackcomb and lots of places in the middle.

so here is my question: years ago I looked at an NTN setup, which was brand new at the time, and people were complaining about boots and bindings breaking. I assume that has been sorted out by now and stuff doesn't break like it used to. I am thinking that the step-in convenience of NTN would be pretty cool. I will prob looks for used gear because 1) $2k for a new setup is steep for a guy who maybe gets 5-10 days of skiing per winter 2) It might take me years to get enough runs to properly break-in a new boot.

so that brings me to my main question: do NTN boots break-in the way way as say my Crispi 75M boots? do you need lots of runs to get the flex broken in properly? or do NTN boots flex from the factory the way they should? sorry for such a basic question, but its the diff between me buying new boots or used boots.

thanks for the help

[TomH]

Scarpa will tell you their boots don't have a break-in period, which I think most folks would tell you is a load of shit. My Crispi Evos certainly have broken in from when they were brand new. That being said, the initial break-in (from 'holy shit - these things don't want to bend to flexing nicely) was over in the better part of a day of skiing and focusing on really weighting that back foot to cycle the bellows. From there, it's a pretty gradual softening as you put the additional days on.

Take a peek at your Crispi boots for the model. If you have the newer style of their 75mm boots (which would be the XR for a 4-buckle boot (or could have been the first couple years of the XP)), then you'll fit pretty much identically into the Crispi's NTN offerings. If you have the older model (i.e. CXR), then the fit is a little different. Scarpa has a good line-up of boots as well that most people can fit into relatively easily. The Garmont Prophet/Scott Voodoo line works for some, but can be a problematic fit for many people to keep the heel captured well and not collapse the toe box onto the foot.

On the stiffness of boots scale, from stiffest to softest is roughly: Crispi Evo WC, Crispi Evo, Scarpa TX Comp, and then is somewhat of a toss-up between the Scarpa TX-Pro, Garmont Prophet/Scott Voodoo, and Crispi Shiver. There was also a softer Scarpa TX, but they discontinued it a few years back.

With you being in-area only, you'll probably want to stick with either the Rottefella Freeride or the 22-Designs OutlawX for a binder. Bishop has a new binding out as well called the BMF-R (-R is resort version - no tour mode) that can be built with either a 75mm toe cage or NTN toe cage, but they're a bit more expensive than the other two listed, and are a full frame binding that attaches at the heel versus the Freeride and Outlaw using the 2nd heel.

The Freeride definitely had some growing pains with lots of instances of toe cage and frame breakage. These failures do still occur occasionally (mostly toe cages now), but to a much smaller degree due to the improvements Rotte made over the years. Early Outlaws broke lots of flex plates, but are also for the most part now dialed in. The one advantage I'd say the Freeride has over the Outlaw is the ability to easily move the binding on the ski and between skis. I've been on the same pair of Freerides for the last 7 years (and ski a lot of area laps) that I keep expecting to explode at any time, but they just haven't yet, so I have nothing bad to say about Freerides.

[bauerb]

hey TomH, thanks for the really great response. I appreciate it

[Rodbelan]

Yeah, real good infos, from experience...

There is a lot of BS on all kinds of forum regarding telemark that we should signal... Or else, maybe we should signal the good stuff; hence my 2 tumbs up for TomH.

When I began telemarking, I've fallen into BS traps a lot of times, figuring by experience that it was not real, true, exact... Of course there is a margin for personnel interpretation; but that's not what I am talking of. There are a some people here that are very trustworthy... that's a chance.

[bauerb]

considering how I started Tele skiing, NTN is like space alien tech to me, but I am looking forward to it. I love my Bomber bishops, but I love the idea of step in bindings. btw, if anyone just happens to be selling a size 28 4-buckle NTN boot and skis( 168 - 178 or close to) let me know. I'm flexible on the skis/binding brand/make/model.

[TomH]

ebay and the telemark gear exchange facebook page are the best bets for used boots. If you're handy with nationwide searches on craigslist, can do that as well. Freeheellife.com also has used boots, but didn't see any 28's on their page today.

[TomH]

Also, if/when you buy bindings, make sure you're buying the 'large' size given your boot size . The toe to second heel dimension is fixed for a range of sizes in NTN, so there isn't a possibility to use a 'large' size boot in a 'small' size binding. The break is in the 26ish mondo range, so you're for sure in the large category.

[bauerb]

I did not know that about boot size vs binding size. is it true that any NTN boot will fit any NTN binding as long as you ensure large-large, small-small? I thought I saw somewhere that maybe some boots don't fit specific bindings brand/model? have the specs stayed the same for say the past 5 years? so If I find some older skis/bindings on Ebay with NTN bindings, but buy new Crispi/Scarpa boots, will they def work together? or it depends......thanks

[TomH]

Large boot with large binding and small boot with small binding should work in any of the toe cage bindings (i.e. Freeride, Freedom, Outlaw, Outlaw X). The NTN standard specified the distance from the toe to the second heel for each size range.

The only compatibility issues that have risen up are with some of the Crispi boots in the tech-toe NTN bindings (i.e. Meidjo and Lynx), but it's not universal. The issue is that the NTN standard doesn't have a specified location for the tech toe fittings relative to the toe or second heel, which is critical for the Meidjo and Lynx. Scarpa placed theirs in accordance with Dynafit specs (seems Scott did as well) which are the resultant distances that the Meidjo and Lynx were designed around. Most Crispis work in the tech toe bindings, but there have been instances where the tech fitting to second heel dimension is off, so the binding claw doesn't grab on like it should. It's probably attributable to looser manufacturing tolerances at Crispi.

With all that said, if you're just shooting for a Freeride, Freedom, or Outlaw binding, it's a moot point, as I haven't heard of any of the boots being out of spec on the toe to second heel dimension.

[jeff_er_why]

Seems like Tom has got you covered. I'd add that I have had good experiences with used NTN boots, crispi and Scarpa. The one exception that I've heard about is that if an NTN boot has too many days on it, the duckbutt (part the binding grabs under the arch) gets warn and doesn't grab the binding as well. This is a non-issue for the bishop bindings that grab at the real heel.

Also, I've found cheaper prices for the Bishop bindings in stores v. online. Yes, I said that right, cheaper in stores. I got a BMF/R (randonnee for uphill) for $500 and they were selling the resort version, BMF/3 for $350. This was last year at Bentgate in Golden, CO. Neptune in Boulder had the same prices. I ended up selling them because they weighted a ton so didn't make sense for touring. It's too bad because I liked how they skied and the step-in was cool.

Sadly, finding a used Meidjo 2.1 is pretty rare. That's my favorite of the group due to superior edge control, equally good flex to others, light weight for touring, step-in, breaks and releasability. OutlawX would be a close second though and there are a bunch of those out there. The Freeride/Freedom are still good too and much easier to find cheap/used. YMMV but I had issues with the Rottefella Freeride and Crispi boot combo, it pinched my toes. I have long toes. I had that issue less so but still some with Crispi and OutlawX, making a toe cover out of a soft plastic bucket that I taped to the liner has helped. I even find it helps with the Crispi to Meidjo 2.1 combo.

Another good move is to get a Bishop and keep your current boots, the binding can convert to NTN when you are ready to buy new (or new to you) boots. I'm always a fan of changing fewer variables at a time... #science!