The NNN/BC Truth Thread

[Johnny]

Switch Ron, throw away those T2s and switch to skate boots!

Well, by hating I mean, there's no way people are gonna switch from NN to NNN. It's out of the question for people to go back to XC when they can switch to NTN.

Of course all the XC systems were never meant for downhill. But my point was, it's still the binding that offer the less resistance on the market. Which means, the binding on which you, the skier, will have to use your body the most in order to be able to ski it downhill. Even with beefy plastic boots, I think the very basics of telemark are still in the toes and ankles. Is there a better way to learn that than with leathers and pins? I never thought so, but then you guys reminded me of that thing called NNN... : )

Yeah, the Glitterinds are SO soft... The way they flex is kind of special too... Just hold the tip and flex it while holding the waist with your other hand... It flexes like no other ski... I still find it really hard to turn them because of the camber (I never used XC skis before), but I'm learning... (Read: having fun! : )

[MikeK]

I'm quite aware of the mechanics of both myself. Not to toot my own horn but looking at things through the eyes of a mechanical engineer those things don't go unnoticed.

For a real thorough debate, I encouraged the free body diagram to illustrate those things visually. Often when engineers get in fights over those type of things, it's the best tool to settle the argument and hash out the physics.

I don't expect many skiers to really take something like that seriously. It's a bit nerdy for most hardcore shredders...

I think weight is something that most people discount automatically... not only for boots and bindings, but for the ski itself. A heavier skier can exert much more force on those components and must deal with trying control more inertia, momentum if you want to think of it that way, than a lighter skier.

I've noticed the same thing in my racing hobby, particularly in karts because in that case the mass, and often height, of the driver becomes a very significant part of the system. Even at the same total kart weight, and say corner weights, heavier drivers don't have the option to distribute the mass the same. This can possibly affect the flex and the handling dynamics of the kart. It's very rare a kart chassis that will work for a light driver will work well for a heavy one.

I used to get all sorts of shit for trying to deal with that in a scientific manner, but I was convinced there was some differences that I couldn't account for between driver mass and height.

[MikeK]

Yeah that camber is a bitch. And well, that's why they kick and glide so good...

It's not as much as the E99s we have, and the E99's are stiffer. They are actually easier to to use on hard snow, they seem to cut in easier (torsional stiffness?). They are my wife's skis and they are shorter too.\

I think your goal of floating would be the closest with those skis and NNN though... so light.

[Raventele]

My thought re heavier and taller skiers is that in the case of NNN they can very easily exceed the effective capacities of that binding -- the points where leverage really gets applied usefully..In other words, they can without any conscious efforts jump the longitudinal ridges and over-torque the bar leverage capacities (once the boot is too high from the back I see no way to lever effectively with the bar as you have lost your lateral stability and are now applying too much force to the wrong side of the bar/binding ; you have traded roll for pitch), ending up with far more pitch than either yaw or roll forces.. and down you go! But a lighter , smaller person can perhaps more readily feel the and manipulate within the proper limits.

In any case, I think we have to agree that what we want to look at are yaw and roll as the primary issues for contrasting pins with System bindings, as that is fundamentally what turning skis is about. How each binding stacks up in terms of durability is a separate issue.

LJ, I have 2 pairs of skate boots..They are all I use for XC because I want the ankle support and more sole stiffness.

[MikeK]

Nuttin' wrong with havin' fun. I try to do that every time I ski, no matter how I'm skiing. Great thing about skiing away from the lifts is there is almost never another person to trying to put a damper on your day. You know? That whole I'm better than you, holier than thou shit that crops up from time to time... kind of like on ski forums

Fresh snow, trees, crisp air... N what? Who cares?

[Teleman]

Would love to ski the Glitterands....and honestly we LOVE camber....Always smile when I initiate the first e99 turn...Snore, oh now it's starting....there is a time between the toe initiating and the ski coming around....plenty of time to smile cause in BC..... conditions dictate....If our only choice was nnn or sns we would choose one or the other but pins work better as I have stated...Yes LJ I have numerous sets of wood cc skis out in the shed and some have two pins, many really flimsy three pin but not the 75mm norm.....We have also broken pins, I mean a pin but very rare and have two more as redundant backup......Sounds like I needled you a bit to much about Green....green over here LJ is stinking 500 foot wind towers....industrial wind.....pristine mountains....don't get me going....TM

[CIMA]

MikeK,

Seen as how I live in the city where Kodak was founded and is based, my bet is on Voile.

I'd invest in a digital camera.

It's a pity to know that even the hometown people turned their backs on Kodak without noticing the delicacies that Kodak's films had brought about.
However, that is a good news for German and Japanese camera companies.

I think weight is something that most people discount automatically... not only for boots and bindings, but for the ski itself. A heavier skier can exert much more force on those components and must deal with trying control more inertia, momentum if you want to think of it that way, than a lighter skier.

That is true.
When skiers put on XC or other very light gear, their weight dominates.
Therefore the positioning of your body parts matters much. To translate your potential and kinetic energy efficiently to snow surface, you should think about the configuration of your bones also. Thus your body won't be a dumb weight any more!

[CIMA]

Ron,

Thanks for uploading the video.
But only that one wouldn't prove the superiority of 3-pins very well.
Please don't ski on such nice snow.
Others may be wanting to watch more samples of yours.

In any case, I think we have to agree that what we want to look at are yaw and roll as the primary issues for contrasting pins with System bindings, as that is fundamentally what turning skis is about.

It may be about time for us to refrain from going into detail about technical issues so as not to make MikeK raise a laugh any more. From his point of view, your talk may not sound like science but dubious alchemy.

[CIMA]

I wonder if many of the folks gathering here might mistake NNN/BC for a power game.

NNN/BC begins with admitting the weakness of not only its gear but also human beings themselves relative to vast nature.
Like tour skiing, the main purpose of NNN/BC is an assimilation into nature and never a conquest of it.

Therefore when I ski on NNN/SNS, I focus on not "controlling" something but "making use of" natural force as much as possible. The way of NNN/BC may look like that of martial art.

[MikeK]

It's a pity to know that even the hometown people turned their backs on Kodak without noticing the delicacies that Kodak's films had brought about.

I could be wrong, but I think it's the other way around. I have plenty of Kodak stock that I'd be glad to lend you if you're in need of some toilet paper.

Also, Kodak was a huge producer of pollution - most of it finding it's way into Lake Ontario as that is the natural drainage for this area. In the last 20 years they had been forced, by law, to take measures to reduce their pollutants. Some blamed that for part of their demise. Personally, I'd rather they close up shop than pollute our water... no matter how good the pictures are.