The NNN/BC Truth Thread

[Teleman]

Thanks Cima but I have a smattering of knowledge of different cultures....Saw lots of potential for skiing in China and sure would like to ski some of the Japanese ski zones. But.......LJ.....come up with an answer yet? Heh!!!!! You know Jonny.....have had, what was it 47mm bales fly by my head at speed knowing that there was gonna be a reckoning....That was before the 75 mm..... I think....before that there was the bear trap....still have some of those too....Will now and again take out my mothers old maple 6 and a half footers for a ride in powder to stay connected.....And what's with the love of plastic....Ain't that anti green? Teleman

[MikeK]

What a nice quiver very similiar to mine but as you can see I have chosen system bindings and I am happy with this

Very nice skis. I obviously would have went pins from the Glittertinds on up, but still... a good array.

I almost did buy a pair of Alpina Alaska NNN and pair of Madshus Voss with NNN-BC bindings for skiing groomed

Turned out the boots were out of stock so I nixed the whole thing. Maybe next year. And I was even considering going wax.

I'm constantly looking for used skis though. Sometimes hard to find a good deal, people seem to ask way too much. Maybe just a set of those old school XCD-GT's with wax bases and pins would be nice for skiing at the park near my house

[MikeK]

Let's see which can live longer, Voile's 3-pins or Kodak's films. For me, the extinction of the latter could be a staggering blow.

Seen as how I live in the city where Kodak was founded and is based, my bet is on Voile.

I'd invest in a digital camera.

[Raventele]

Ron,

Cima , seriously, can you show us NNN on anything other than pretty damned easy snow conditions or prepared surface XC "extreme" skating races ? And bTW, Pilot bindings RULE skating, not NNN.

Are you serious?
No way, sorry.
How many contents have I shown here already?
I appeared on the videos here at least twice. Then, how about you?
Why not put up some videos where you're skiing on 3-pins miraculously?
"Fairness," may be a word about which you think twice before posting.

well, fair enough..Here we are and I am on pins and cables..One of my fave places to ski..
Some low-angle fun in powder..And I fell in a trough unseen! It was the pins tipping me downward!!
The miracle is the snow that falls on this very humble place!
[video][/video]

[MikeK]

I really don't want to get in an argument with Ron, and he's been ignoring me thus far, but... I can't help but reference this article by Steve Barnett:

http://www.earnyourturns.com/9240/sb-no ... tele-lite/

It's really a ski review, but he talks a bit about the pluses and minuses of skiing the system bindings with an appropriate ski on different types of snow.

I think one must assume that you have enough skill to ski this way before you could come to the same conclusions as Steve.

[Raventele]

Back when SB could actually be found in ski forums, I talked to him quite a bit about his setups and unorthodox techniques. He said his fave binding was SNS pilot and Glittertinds though he experimented with other SNS bindings and still used pins esp. on bigger XCD skis. He had no qualms about mentioning the weaknesses of skiing XCD/BC on System bindings.

"I have only tried the XA8, Glittertind combination a few times at the downhill area and, while enjoyable and educational, it was not remotely close to skiing with a bigger ski and boot. Speed is not its strength.
If the snow is packed or hard, Glittertinds parallel reasonably well. Not like slalom skis but safe enough and easy enough for most backcountry uses. If the snow is both hard and rough, as in frozen suncups , then it is hard to keep a steady pressure on them, hard to keep them turning smoothly, and something else could be a lot better. This is where they are weakest."

And in addition he mentioned that his light XCD System was really not good in heavy deeper snow.

[Johnny]

Well, everywhere, technology have made people more stupid. Because they rely on new gear, new technology, they become more lazy everyday. They don't force themselves into learning and perfecting themselves. They all choose the easisest way. Why bother with practice and knowledge when technology make it so simple? And it applies to skiing as well.

I think the whole NNN BC thing is very, very interesting in this sense. There's a lot to learn from the least favorite. There's a lot to learn from the most difficult way of doing things. You get a better man only by learning the hard way. There is nothing to learn when everything is easy, when the boots and the bindings are doing the job for your ankles and toes. There's nothing to learn if you're doing things the way you always did. If you can do it on NNN, nothing will stop you. If you cannot do it on NNN, you still have stuff to learn. And it's good, because learning new stuff is fun. Or else I'd be better off dead.

I think what makes it the most interesting is that it pisses people off. People HATE NNN. But deep inside, we all know why it piss people off: because they can't do it. Isn't that fascinating? Isn't that the most challenging thing?

People laugh at me when I bring my XC shoes and my Glittertinds on the resort's double black diamond trails. They really make fun of me. They think it's stupid. I think it's GREAT!

Anti-green? I'm sorry, but your Fischer skis are made of way more complex chemical stuff. I won't talk about the wax you leave in the woods. And killing animals so you, the human can have fun on leather boots is THE most anti-green thing in the world. Let's not discuss what's green or not, or we'll start a war.

Hey Teleman, I saw a guy with 2-pin bindings last winter... Remember those? I'd LOVE to get a pair...!

TeleMarcin, don't you think the Eons and the Epochs are a bit too large for NNN bindings? I mean, for the downhill part? Just curious... (I'm asking as a future NNN enthousiast... : )

[Raventele]

Well, everywhere, technology have made people more stupid. Because they rely on new gear, new technology, they become more lazy everyday. They don't force themselves into learning and perfecting themselves. They all choose the easisest way. Why bother with practice and knowledge when technology make it so simple? And it applies to skiing as well.

I think the whole NNN BC thing is very, very interesting in this sense. There's a lot to learn from the least favorite. There's a lot to learn from the most difficult way of doing things. You get a better man only by learning the hard way. There is nothing to learn when everything is easy, when the boots and the bindings are doing the job for your ankles and toes. There's nothing to learn if you're doing things the way you always did. If you can do it on NNN, nothing will stop you. If you cannot do it on NNN, you still have stuff to learn. And it's good, because learning new stuff is fun. Or else I'd be better off dead.

I think what makes it the most interesting is that it pisses people off. People HATE NNN. But deep inside, we all know why it piss people off: because they can't do it. Isn't that fascinating? Isn't that the most challenging thing?

People laugh at me when I bring my XC shoes and my Glittertinds on the resort's double black diamond trails. They really make fun of me. They think it's stupid. I think it's GREAT!

Anti-green? I'm sorry, but your Fischer skis are made of way more complex chemical stuff. I won't talk about the wax you leave in the woods. And killing animals so you, the human can have fun on leather boots is THE most anti-green thing in the world. Let's not discuss what's green or not, or we'll start a war.

Hey Teleman, I saw a guy with 2-pin bindings last winter... Remember those? I'd LOVE to get a pair...!

TeleMarcin, don't you think the Eons and the Epochs are a bit too large for NNN bindings? I mean, for the downhill part? Just curious... (I'm asking as a future NNN enthousiast... : )

It's seems crazy to hate NNN. I think the whole thing boils down pretty neatly (as far as turning the skis go) : it's all about yawing and rolling -however much you pitch must be done very very carefully irrespective of bindings-- and system bindings, NNN or SNS, simply require a lot more subtly of movement to effect and manage the yaw and the roll. It's an interesting idea to think that mastering NNN Downhill will carry over into skiing heavier gear more easily. I have always wanted some Glittertinds and superlitte bindings paired with a skate-type boot for skiing the trees and meadows between Nordic trails where there's so much opportunity locally. Might be a perfect setup there.

[MikeK]

First off. Hate is a strong word. Hating something like NNN is about the most ridiculous thing to hate too. That implies putting a lot of energy into strongly disliking something that doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the big picture.

Preference based on trial and error is not something that should be discounted. Science and logic aside, sometimes you need to respect art. And art has no other purpose than to be art.

And as far as the technology rant, I'm a bit confused. NNN is a technological advancement over NN, hence the extra N denoting 'NEW'. It made XC skiing more efficient but arguably made downhill skiing harder. It was never designed as a downhill binding. Trying something new or different, with an existing application, is often what drives technology. I've seen and heard of it countless times.

As far as dissing people for not wanting to learn to downhill ski on a XC binding, I think that's a bit harsh, and almost as bad as those dissing you for wanting to do such a thing. Those that have not even mastered the lesser skills of skiing may just become frustrated in trying something like that. The spectrum is broad and some people still struggle with what someone else may find easy. If you have mastered an art, and you feel bored, by all means you should push the envelope though. Whenever you go against the grain though, expect resistance.

As far as the Glittertinds. They are an awesome ski. They are unique ski. They are the softest XC ski I've ever used. Oddly enough they tour great. I find them hard to turn. They will parallel on hardpack but they don't dig in very well. They lack torsional stiffness to hold the edge. Maybe a lighter, smoother skier could do better.

For an intermediate skier I think they respond best to XC style skiing i.e. step turns and stem turns. You can squeak out a long radius tele turn on mild slope even with lack of skill. It becomes exponentially harder the steeper and deeper the snow is. A novice skier will struggle with them, especially in the longer length, and even with pins.

The biggest plus is they are super light and they are relatively fast. They feel like nothing on your feet... until you need to turn, and you're heading down a narrow trail in deep snow or in a snowshoe trough... then you think twice about them.

[Raventele]

When I find time,maybe today, I'll post some pix which show why it's so relatively easier to effect yaw and roll using pins as opposed to NNN .. It's rather a simple matter of how the duckbill is held securely in the basket and can easily lever against/with both the sides of the basket as well as the bail..but with NNN there's so much play in the bar interface and it's so easy to jump the boots over the longitudinal ridges that there's just no question as to which binding type will more readily facilitate downhill control.
But , BTW, there's something that occurs to me and that is that, all things considered, it may well be that smaller and lighter folks are going to take the likes of NNN/BC as far as it can go much more easily than larger or heavier folks.