The NNN/BC Truth Thread

[MikeK]

Also CIMA,

Just another little comment from the peanut gallery... and I know I'm not alone on this.

I saw your quiver, and I must say from an engineering standpoint, that those skis were never meant to be skied as downhill skis. To the average skier who buys those in the US, they are used for skiing 50/50 groomed, ungroomed trails. They don't really excel at either, but they can do both decently... much like a hybrid mountain bike that one would use for city and light trail riding. In most cases you'd see those skis with system bindings because they are highly cambered and designed for efficient striding. They are also designed to 'survive' hills, not thrive on them.

To ski them the way you do takes them beyond what they were designed to do by mastering a very delicate skill. The majority of people with those skis in their garage or basement would never do such a thing.



These are my current skis and they all have pins on them. The E99s and the Glittertinds could definitely be skied with system bindings and I used them for 50/50 like I was mentioning above. Both my wife and I just happen to prefer the pins. She found the 75mm platform to be more stable being a more inexperienced skier than myself, and I have preferred 75mm from the time I started skiing, mainly for the resistance and boot feel, but also for the ease of doing step turns, especially in deeper snow. I appreciate the downhill control as well.

The Epochs and the Annums I'd never even consider putting system bindings on. These skis are reserved for breaking trail, steep trails, or deep powder/deep glop. The Annums may turn out to be used for myself more for downhill type skiing rather than tours, but I haven't decided yet. I bought them this summer because they were on sale... I didn't need them but I figured I could do something with them.

I also have a pair of Fischer S-Bound 98's (similar to the Epoch) that are not shown.

[MikeK]

For the same reason, many skiers gave up on telemark and turned to AT.
That is not limited to skiing. In every sport, people are won over by easier gear nowadays.

You could say the same thing for NNN in terms of striding efficiency. It certainly has taken over in the groomed XC because of it's inherent advantage.

I don't think XCD, or whatever you want to call it, will ever really go away. That would be like taking away the hybrid hardtail, XC mountain bike from biking. Not everyone may be using it to go downhill, but there will be a market for trail riders.

Same applies for metal edge XCD skis. There is a need to fill that middle ground between groomed XC, AT, Alpine, and Telemark. The vast majority I suspect will be trail skiers, because really that's what these skis are made to do, and that's what they do best. Some other people will choose to push them farther than what they were designed to do. Why? That is up to you I guess, but I don't see what you are doing becoming a mainstream sport.

If we carry the analogy to bikes: XC would be Roadies; AT and Alpine would be Full Suspension Downhill. Then you'd have hybrids (and within hybrids those that lean more towards road or more towards off-road) and hard tail mountain bikes - the hybrids like XCD, the hard tail like Telemark. So that gives you the full spectrum. And from the bike standpoint not a lot of people are running downhill courses with hybrids. It can, or rather could be done, but it's never going to be popular. The hard tail, like Telemark, is fitting only a niche market of people who still want to cling on to the old way, which is maybe good for combining all sorts of terrain, but for the most extreme, is not the way to go.

So such is the case with many sports. Technology progresses but there is still room for the tiny niches in between, and what is learned at the extremes is applied to make those little markets' gear perform a little bit better. Seen as how they are compromises from both ends of the spectrum, you won't see radical changes, but rather tradeoffs on one end or the other. The NNN-BC is a mighty trade off of control for striding efficiency. Some will tend to that end of the spectrum while others will sacrifice that bit of speed/efficiency for control. It all depends on your style and what you are doing... but I don't foresee either going away.

[Teleman]

Uhhh couple of thingers....You LJ can't get enough of jasmine.....Cima having been called the Barbarian in China and a Neanderthal around here....the horse shoe crabber thinger rings true....sorta.... LJ when did the sns or nnn system get to this part of the world and what were people using prior to it....It's gonna hurt LJ.....Sorry but....Teleman

[Raventele]

can you show us NNN on anything other than pretty damned easy snow conditions

Raven, that's a very good point. This is THE main lesson I've learned with XCD:
It doesn't have to be difficult to be fun anymore. It doesn't have to be steep, hard, tight, narrow or icy to be fun. Just let yourself glide, follow the curves. Don't force anything... Don't try to control your skis, just let them follow the fall line and move your body accordingly...

It's just like Tai-Chi, don't try to control... Just absorb and redirect the force... Don't try to control things...

XC downhill is sure a different discipline than telemark. Just like NTN is a different thing than telemark. And while I will always have several pairs of pins, I do think NNN is the purest form of XCD.

But hey, please, keep this battle going, it's too funny...

Ok, but here's the thing LJ, so far I have not actually seen anything that could accurately be termed XCD in any of Cima's vids. And I like his vids a lot.Climbing closed lifts is just not XCD , seriously. Though it's not that I think a person cannot do XCD on System gear, but for most, pin options are simply easier, cover a broader range of conditions and have a much shorter learning curve and offer a much broader range of gear possibilities..IMHO.
And I remain interested in the Japanese NNN/BC technique..

[CIMA]

Ron,

Cima , seriously, can you show us NNN on anything other than pretty damned easy snow conditions or prepared surface XC "extreme" skating races ? And bTW, Pilot bindings RULE skating, not NNN.

Are you serious?
No way, sorry.
How many contents have I shown here already?
I appeared on the videos here at least twice. Then, how about you?
Why not put up some videos where you're skiing on 3-pins miraculously?
"Fairness," may be a word about which you think twice before posting.

[Raventele]

Well, most of the images i post are just stills.. for various reasons.. most of them shame..

[CIMA]

MikeK,

In the case the torn out screws, it could be that they were not sealed properly and the failure occurred due to weakening of the ski core.

Highly likely. The sealing seems fishy.
Or simply the metallic fatigue of one of the screws...
Or the stress corrosion cracking of the screw...

As far as theological aspects. Sure. I've been there many times when people try to refute physics based on emotion. It's simply a fact of many things in life that people may be swayed by 'feel' rather than data. With things that combine art and science, to which skiing is very much a part (the gear being science, the application being the art), subjectivity can have a major influence.

Even in the gear talk, you might not have seen any science here from your engineering point of view.
It's the alchemy.

In my own little world of trying bindings, I've found what I like. I'm not a telemark skier though... I feel I represent the other side of pinners, and that is trail skiers. I don't purposely seek out hills, I deal with them as they present themselves in a particular tour. It's much like XC skiing but on more rugged, un-groomed trails.

I like trail skiing too and tend to walk a long distance more than ten miles.
In such case, using NNN/SNS is all the more worth considering because it'll save your energy and make you feel more comfortable.

To the average skier who buys those in the US, they are used for skiing 50/50 groomed, ungroomed trails. They don't really excel at either, but they can do both decently... much like a hybrid mountain bike that one would use for city and light trail riding. In most cases you'd see those skis with system bindings because they are highly cambered and designed for efficient striding. They are also designed to 'survive' hills, not thrive on them.

Since you're a XC based skier, it is natural for you to think so.
Yes, the majority of the skiers on the XC gear won't step in the downhill side too much from now on. The XCD skiers will stay in the status of minority.
However, because here is the telemark site, it would be natural for us to weight the downhill side more. Many telemark skiers would be interested in such topic.

To ski them the way you do takes them beyond what they were designed to do by mastering a very delicate skill. The majority of people with those skis in their garage or basement would never do such a thing.

From AT guys' point of view, all telemark skiers are wackos.
From heavy telemark skiers' point of view, all XCD skiers are wackos.
From 3-pin XCD skiers' point of view, all NNN/BC skiers are wackos.

However, once you learn some basics of NNN/BC skiing, you'll get quite different experience in skiing that could rejuvenates your BC life. Since you've already had techniques of XC skiing, learning curve wouldn't be so steep as you imagine. Here, I'm using "learning curve" as a familiar term.

These are my current skis and they all have pins on them.

What a nice collection!
It seems that replacing all of the bindings with NNN/SNSs wouldn't be an easy task for you.

I don't think XCD, or whatever you want to call it, will ever really go away. That would be like taking away the hybrid hardtail, XC mountain bike from biking. Not everyone may be using it to go downhill, but there will be a market for trail riders.

Well, I don't know about the future very much.
That would be a matter of "the survival of the fittest."
Even horseshoe crab wouldn't be an exception.
(I'm talking in terms of ecology.)

I wonder how the makers of telemark gear are seeing their product lines now.
Will 3-pin business be sustainable for them?
Let's see which can live longer, Voile's 3-pins or Kodak's films. For me, the extinction of the latter could be a staggering blow.

That is up to you I guess, but I don't see what you are doing becoming a mainstream sport.

I'm not an ESPN wannabe but may be a dreamer who wants to ski like flying!

[CIMA]

It's just like Tai-Chi, don't try to control... Just absorb and redirect the force... Don't try to control things...

I bet you'll be a good NNN(SNS)/BC skier really, LJ.

[CIMA]

Cima having been called the Barbarian in China and a Neanderthal around here....

For honor of Chinese people, I'm not a Chinese but a Japanese: more barbaric ones.

[TeleMarcin]

These are my current skis and they all have pins on them. The E99s and the Glittertinds could definitely be skied with system bindings and I used them for 50/50 like I was mentioning above. Both my wife and I just happen to prefer the pins. She found the 75mm platform to be more stable being a more inexperienced skier than myself, and I have preferred 75mm from the time I started skiing, mainly for the resistance and boot feel, but also for the ease of doing step turns, especially in deeper snow. I appreciate the downhill control as well.

The Epochs and the Annums I'd never even consider putting system bindings on. These skis are reserved for breaking trail, steep trails, or deep powder/deep glop. The Annums may turn out to be used for myself more for downhill type skiing rather than tours, but I haven't decided yet. I bought them this summer because they were on sale... I didn't need them but I figured I could do something with them.

What a nice quiver very similiar to mine but as you can see I have chosen system bindings and I am happy with this