The NNN/BC Truth Thread

[Teleman]

Couple of things Cima, first if there were no pins we would probably be on the nnn or sns binders....We just like pins.....work better for us related to what we ski and do....The second thinger is "It all depends".....Depends on conditions....depends of steepness....depends on tightness....depends on skier....It all depends....on everything....Our technique Cima is to generally head the skis down the fall line...Hold that thought....XCD like everything else in Tmark gets wider....shorter....less cambier....So where does one cut off xcd and mold it into alpine?......My outer limit is the Rebound at 88-60-78....beyond that the skis are heading rapidly toward downhill no matter what is under foot...They also need at that point heavier more mechanical bindings....then they need burly boots....I'd rather start using my throwaway skis of yester year than go in that direction....That's why I'm reconditioning some very old e99's for deep powder....Short and stubby works but skinny works better..... When heading them down the fall line skinnies accelerate...speed builds quickly....short stuby, you turn bleed speed....skinnies don't work that way....just an angulation starts a slow arc while speeding down....that is when you put more forward push forcing the tips in....Exploding powder results and a lessoning of speed....which leads to a new balance....tips come up speed builds repeat.....If you TURN on skinnies at speed in bottomless you sink and stop...so you ride the length of the ski...essentially now one very long ski...and your body movement is fore aft...when the steeps moderate then you can skim the surface...Like Teleking is doing in the last picture of him....He is on Rebounds and if the powder is consolidated and fast it's a dream ski...If not all will still have fun because being out in nowhere is a blast in itself....Hope you get a ton of snow over there....Almost ended on Hokkaido back in the late 60's....Kinda wish I had....Might have hit the hills....Teleman

[Raventele]

But others will want to ski at higher speeds on more variable snow and with more stability..

I would recommend light AT rigs to such the folks in that case.
Actually the AT rigs for rando racing are far lighter than those of XCD. Still more, the rando racers have no issues about skiing on powder. There is nothing for XCD skiers to beat the rando racers in any cases.

1) Confusion: Most XCD skiers are not out to beat AT , they just want the most stability over a broad range of conditions their light XCD can provide, and many , though certainly not all, also want the ability to Tele when desired and things are not ideal, and that's not gonna be found in NNN! And consider those who do not want to Tele at all but still want decent overland ability, for them a Voile 3pin/cable and leathers or lite plastics are simply the best choice as parallel turns are far far more stable on pin gear than System..:

My "broad" definition is just to say that anything appropriate to a rolling tour and decent downhill skiing should be called XCD..

Then, where is the border between XCD and normal telemark?
The XCD of your definition was called just "telemark" ten years ago, wasn't it?

2) Confusion: Like colors in a palette, there are never really any distinct borders..Eventually all things blend around the edges.. But I would say that when you consider skis in excess of 70mm in the centers, you are pushing the defintion of what works well for XCD..That considered, therfore any ski under that constraint can reasonably be an XCD ski..

And, btw, there are many times when breaking trail even on the flats is far far easier in the likes of pins and leathers or lite plastics than System gear..

I wonder on what grounds you're saying like that.
Unless you even call 3-pin-mounted BD Megawatt a XCD, that is not true. Free pin pivot systems are always better than 3-pins for walikng. That's why tour bindings such as Voile Switchback and G3 Targa Ascent are welcomed by many telemark skiers. Because of the resistive force coming from bindings/boots, it'll gnaw on your foot in every step you make. In a long ski tour, it'll accumulate as a large penalty for you. What is worse is that for 3-pins it's not so easy as TLT or NNN(SNS) to get the tips above powder when you step forward. That is apparent when you go for ski tour with folks on different bindings. From those points of view, 3-pin is just a joke.

3) Simple test: try breaking trail in an NNN setup in a foot of unsettled heavier (not ideal) snow just on the flats..Then try it on Voile 3PC --sometimes I even latch the cable to STOP any lateral flopping .. Under such a snow circumstance, I may want to XC on the flats and the hill in my backyard, but first I break and "groom" the trails in my pin gear with my T4's! No contest, the lateral flopping (instability) of NNN in such a situation makes for a terrible waste of energy!
BTW stepping the skis requires more energy than sliding them, and in my pin setup, in the situation I describe which is common for XCD, I do not have to step, and angled slide will do. But perhaps you have redefined XCD to mean climbing closed ski areas ???

3) There's virtually no leverage available to take advantage of in your NNN bindings..A simple little bar and a bit of plastic directly under the toes!..Compare that to the leverage available with a duckbill as one comes tight against the bail either forward or backwards ; there's simply no comparison..Almost all the power transfer you can get from an NNN binding has to come from weight shift with very very leverage. Again a good stiff-soled boot seems very very inappropriate to NNN BC bindings. In any case, I never said you could not ski a steep slope on very good snow or consolidated softer snow; your pics illustrate the point RE conditions and NNN BC.

Such leverage works on powder negatively as it's related to the resistive force. From another point of view, that leverage, in conjunction with the stiffness of upper caffs of boots, would become a cause of sprain in your foot. In that sense, NNN/BC is safer. The leverage is not always good as it may appear.

4) Again, granted there's some negative aspect in the way the forward leverage on pins CAN act in very soft snow, but people have learned from forever to counteract this by weight shift..Not a big deal, and the energy is redirected..Also , do not forget that when keeping the heel down on pins, the leverage is naturally directed upwards, which means pins are far far more powerful for parallel turns than NNN or any system gear can possibly be and when the boot levers against the binding and the heel is down, pins are laterally stable (somethin NNN can never be) ; and when things get really tough most XCD skiers will simply do various "Alpine" turns..

5) You may not "care" about weighting, but virtually everyone in your vids is careful to keep their weight generally back..And those who do not go tumbling --pretty much the same as what you would see with folks on various pins. I would submit to you that IF NNN/BC floated powder significantly better than gear with pins, such prominent backweighting would seem unnecessary.

I do not see any merits of even/forward weighting.
That'll simply wear you out because you're just performing a split-stance-squat:





Both look very similar, don't they?
This is one of the main reasons why many of telemark skiers give up on telemark and turn to AT.

As for skiing technique of NNN/BC, I'd like to elaborate on it in another setting because there are many issues that overlap general telemark techniques.

5) Well, nice pix, but you're being hyperbolic in your selection.. No one has to Tele either low or spread out..The big Tele gear preachers rail against this all the time..But in any case, one can actually ski low without that very tiring spread .But, above all, do not forget the fun factor..Some people WANT at times to go very low , even if it means suffering a tiring spread! This is ok on pins; it will not work well on system bindings.
I notice that your particular ski techniques does require a very high stance and a very compact one.. It appears there's as little as 3 or 4 inches between your front and back feet, and ideally that would seem to be best for your gear..A wider stance will make the lateral instability of NNN impossible to control..Even trying to go low on NNN, I think, will most likely get a person into big trouble on your preferred binding and boot system..And you MUST stand tall and back also to keep from pitching up on your toes , which would be far far to easy to do on your bindings..In other words, the only way to really properly and securely weight NNN is to AVOID lifting the heel beyond a 2 or 3 inches and that requires a VERY compact back-weighted stance and generally a very tall one..

I think it's great to ski ultralite gear, but I think far too often the claims made for it are ultra-exaggerated..

That's true. NNN/BC is not light at all compared to the rando racing gear. I need rando racing skis with SNS mounted!

Let's just say you are right about the NNN binding floating more readily in very soft snow than various pins options.. Where does that leave the pinners ? Making various adjustments to our technique, that's all..

That's true. Good techniques make up for the drawbacks on powder to some extent.

But suppose conditions are not so great, a foot of heavier snow, ice, serious hardpack yada yada, where's does that leave the System gear crowd ? Flailing, not going out, skiing very carefully and very slowly, perhaps walking..
For a more powerful binding, more appropriate to more demanding and less-than-ideal conditions pins win, simply no contest!
( BTW, NNN/BC bindings and lateral stability..is there such a thing ?..Simply miserable ..)

Stability, again? Leave it to AT gear!
XCD can never beat AT on any snow conditions.
Actually, the weakest end of 3-pin/XCD isn't so stable as the ones you're assuming.

7) Again..Generally XCD people are not interested in Rando ..And how are all the XCD people going to Tele as desired on Rando ??
And you are right, but I would not suggest people bother with the very weak end of pins..

Many BC skiers love powder much more than any other conditions. I'd like to take the cream of the snow and give the rest to my dog. However, I like plain corn snow also.

8) I would also, but then I would ski much less than I do...any smooth snow will do, but that's a far greater variety than corn and powder..
And consider all of the folks who are new to XCD and perhaps have budgets to hold to!.. They should be sold gear that works well on a couple of snow conditions --after a few hundred hours of practice??? Man, that dog won't hunt..

[CIMA]

Teleman,

Since you're already content with the pins, I won't twist your arm any further.

I'd like to share various aspects of NNN/BC in this thread with not sticking to a specific negative side..
However, I felt some unfairness in this topic when I joined first. It seemed strongly biased against NNN/BC. That's why I joined here and then started to correct things because there are so many folks out here riding on NNN/BC very well and liking it very much already.

I skied on my Fischer S-bound 88 (169, 88-68-78) on bottom-less powder with an angle of 45 degrees and got enough flotation with flying feeling. Despite that, I don't like such snow condition very much for the risk of avalanche.
I use such a shorter ski for powder because of the easiness of turn, hike-up and handling. We have lots of snow, and 16ft of snow is not uncommon in an area we go out for ski tour often.

[CIMA]

1) Confusion: Most XCD skiers are not out to beat AT , they just want the most stability over a broad range of conditions their light XCD can provide, and many , though certainly not all, also want the ability to Tele when desired and things are not ideal, and that's not gonna be found in NNN! And consider those who do not want to Tele at all but still want decent overland ability, for them a Voile 3pin/cable and leathers or lite plastics are simply the best choice as parallel turns are far far more stable on pin gear than System..

It sounds as if you're a representative of all XCD skiers and can read their minds. Not all current XCD skiers are content with status quo. Some may want to try lighter gear like LJ even if that may sacrifice overall stability that you give importance most. Others may turn to a beefy tele or AT gear to gain more stability. It seems that we see the latter cases more often nowadays. Anyway, not only I but many of the followers of thread would already have had enough of your "stability" talks. Such talks won't leave any productive results in this thread.

2) Confusion: Like colors in a palette, there are never really any distinct borders..Eventually all things blend around the edges.. But I would say that when you consider skis in excess of 70mm in the centers, you are pushing the defintion of what works well for XCD..That considered, therfore any ski under that constraint can reasonably be an XCD ski..

That sounds funny because you yourself don't know what the XCD is. Why don't you call it just "telemark" and stop standing on such arbitrary definitions? As I said before, your broad definition XCD may sound weird for the folks outside the US. Such vague definition will make our discussions so far pointless. XCD is a short for Cross-Country-Ski-Donwhill, isn't it?

3) Simple test: try breaking trail in an NNN setup in a foot of unsettled heavier (not ideal) snow just on the flats..Then try it on Voile 3PC --sometimes I even latch the cable to STOP any lateral flopping .. Under such a snow circumstance, I may want to XC on the flats and the hill in my backyard, but first I break and "groom" the trails in my pin gear with my T4's! No contest, the lateral flopping (instability) of NNN in such a situation makes for a terrible waste of energy!
BTW stepping the skis requires more energy than sliding them, and in my pin setup, in the situation I describe which is common for XCD, I do not have to step, and angled slide will do. But perhaps you have redefined XCD to mean climbing closed ski areas ???

Again you're comparing a tent to a log house here.
In addition, even if your pointing out such a small exceptional case is true, it wouldn't be possible to turn the existing users of free-pivot bindings to 3-pins in a thousand years.

4) Again, granted there's some negative aspect in the way the forward leverage on pins CAN act in very soft snow, but people have learned from forever to counteract this by weight shift..Not a big deal, and the energy is redirected..Also , do not forget that when keeping the heel down on pins, the leverage is naturally directed upwards, which means pins are far far more powerful for parallel turns than NNN or any system gear can possibly be and when the boot levers against the binding and the heel is down, pins are laterally stable (somethin NNN can never be) ; and when things get really tough most XCD skiers will simply do various "Alpine" turns..

Because of the frailty of gear, "power" has never been my main concern.
A Jodo saying says, "The weak may beat the strong." I'm interested in the process searching for skiing techniques where a weak gear beat strong one. And that really sometimes happens. That's why I'm fascinated with NNN/BC.

5) Well, nice pix, but you're being hyperbolic in your selection.. No one has to Tele either low or spread out..The big Tele gear preachers rail against this all the time..But in any case, one can actually ski low without that very tiring spread .But, above all, do not forget the fun factor..Some people WANT at times to go very low , even if it means suffering a tiring spread! This is ok on pins; it will not work well on system bindings.
I notice that your particular ski techniques does require a very high stance and a very compact one.. It appears there's as little as 3 or 4 inches between your front and back feet, and ideally that would seem to be best for your gear..A wider stance will make the lateral instability of NNN impossible to control..Even trying to go low on NNN, I think, will most likely get a person into big trouble on your preferred binding and boot system..And you MUST stand tall and back also to keep from pitching up on your toes , which would be far far to easy to do on your bindings..In other words, the only way to really properly and securely weight NNN is to AVOID lifting the heel beyond a 2 or 3 inches and that requires a VERY compact back-weighted stance and generally a very tall one..

It's not hyperbolic, at all. For taking a picture of tele, how about asking your tele-friends to hold their poses of telemark skiing in front of your camera? I bet almost all of them strike same poses as my pix shows.

The skiing techniques of NNN/BC are not limited to NNN/BC itself. I'd like to elaborate on them in another setting.

7) Again..Generally XCD people are not interested in Rando ..And how are all the XCD people going to Tele as desired on Rando ??
And you are right, but I would not suggest people bother with the very weak end of pins..

Because of stability...
Sorry, no my comments on this any more.
I had enough already.

8) I would also, but then I would ski much less than I do...any smooth snow will do, but that's a far greater variety than corn and powder..
And consider all of the folks who are new to XCD and perhaps have budgets to hold to!.. They should be sold gear that works well on a couple of snow conditions --after a few hundred hours of practice??? Man, that dog won't hunt..

Due to your broad and arbitrary definition of XCD, I cannot leave any comments here, either.

[Raventele]

Cima, let me be clear: I think it's wonderful that you all ski where and when and how you do..We can all learn a lot from the techniques you all employ on your system gear. It would be great if you started a thread on the technique of XCD skiing NNN/BC
But you seem to be intimating that NNN/Bc is somehow "true" XCD and I really don't know what that means exactly..
Skiers over here have been squabbling over the definition of XCD for many years..I am unclear as to the benefit of that. But one thing is certain: XCD does not equal Telemark in any meaningful way at all..Many XCD skiers simply do not Tele.

And I am not sure why you are convinced that pinners must ski all spread out ??












Of course sometimes sitting way back can be quite useful..

[CIMA]

And I am not sure why you are convinced that pinners must ski all spread out ??

I said that you ask your friends to hold their (still) poses of telemark skiing like commemorative photo.

It seems that you picked mainly the photos of the lighter end of XCD, and many of them don't stand for the styles at the maximum state of turns. Here again, your arbitrary definition of XCD is making the followers of this thread confused. How about put up the photos of the heaviest side of XCD in which you trust most? Let's say a set, Scarpa T2 eco/Voile 3-pin hard-wire/skis with 80mm width at center.

[Teleman]

Generally in the BC where we ski mostly, we really don't bring the skis around in a turn...That makes no sense but we generally are in the ...head them down mode....On skinnies we initiate a turn then back off...the skis being longer take a bit then start to come around...we call this an arc....because we don't complete the turn...the skis fall off into the fall line....Teledance out in North Idaho really does dance down a hill....his skis come around more than us and he literally ballets down the hill....Out in the bc that translates to powder blasting turns...If our skis were really short and wide like Telewheels..there would be more turns but we are generally on longer stuff which translates into head them down and never complete a turn in deep powder because the skis will sink and stop....Been enjoying (Trying) to figure out what each of you are saying....Both of you must have a math background....Teleking and Telerock being engineers and Telewheels a math teacher....they can figure out what you are both writing....but....this oldie isn't so I try....Also Cima the pictures you see are the way we ski....And Ron like the electronic pictures....Local artist has used a few of them in painting.....Gotta say her painting of our pictures is better than the original...TM

[TeleMarcin]

I have been in the discussion pins vs BC system bindings with my Polish friends and most of the arguments are repeated in this thread.
1.For sure when choosing the BC system bindings I am not seeking the "stability" as this can be achieved with Dynafit AT set up's.
2.Based on my personal experience I can not accept the argument that SNS XA manual bindings are less reliable and more prone to break than 3 pins bindings. I'm still owning the set up I have bought in1997 and still use it without any problems.
3.BC system bindings are more efficient on flats and therefore are perfect choice for backcountry touring/rando excursions.
4. BC system bindings/boots are approximately 1/3 cheaper than the 3pins/telemark/boots, which makes this equipment more popular here.
5.I am not a big fan of splitting the XCD definition into light telemark and cross country, but logically BC system bindings are more "cross country" than the 3 pins.
6. I hope that winter will come soon and we will come back to skiing not writing
,

[Johnny]

The Telemark Truth:

NTN skiers keep bashing on 75mm because they're not good enough to ski them.
75mm skiers keep bashing on 3-pin because they're not good enough to ski them.
3-pin skiers keep bashing on real XC because they're not good enough to ski them.

(The same truth applies to ski width... : )

You're a REAL telemark skier only when you can ski any trail on the Birkenstocks system.
CIMA, please start your own NNN thread with daily pictures...!

[CIMA]

Teleman,

I don't change my skiing style depending on the gear. I'm sticking to simple principles that I learned in the last seven years. Due to the flexibility of ankles of low-upper-cuff boots, style may look differently on NNN/BC.

TeleMarcin,

I don't know why the Salomon SNS XA is so tough and unbreakable despite its appearance.
It's a real buddy for us, isn't it?

LJ,

Old settlers beat newcomers. That is a fact of the world history. So I don't care much.
Yeah, I'm thinking to organize my experiences then start a new thread sometime soon.