The NNN/BC Truth Thread

[TeleMarcin]

Hello, first I would like to thank you for accepting me to this forum I am lurking in since its creation. I am XCD skier from Poland and I am mostly interested in topics related to light side of the telemark scene.
I would like to say that I am totally supporting CIMA in his opinions on SNS XA system bindings, since couple of years this is my favorite touring binding. I was riding various telemark bindings including Linkens, Rottefellas Cobra R8, Hammerheads, Voile 3pin Hardwire, first versions of NTN I also do have the AT experience with mostly Dynafit pin bindings.
I have sold all my wide and heavy skis/bindings/boots and nowadays I am on Salomon SNS XA for my usual stuff i.e. backcountry touring in Polish mountains (between 600 – 1800 m above sea level, long ridge walks, traverses of the whole mountain groups etc.). I have left one setup with Dynafit for alpine use i.e. haute route style traverses, and lifts supported skiing with my children.
I found SNS XA system binding absolutely trouble-free bindings easy on ascents and reliable on descent both using parallel and tele techniques. The only drawback of this system is that is works with virtually 2 models of boots i.e. Salomon X adv-8 and less powerful Salomon Xadv-6. So there is no big choice. I still have one pair of old yellow Salomon X Adventure boots and they are better performing than the new one. You can see the difference on the description of the boots I have made for my blog:
http://www.loppet.pl/2013/11/salomon-x-adv-8.html
http://www.loppet.pl/2013/11/salomon-sns-xa-manual.html
The Rottefella version of system bindings i.e. NNN BC offers larger selection of available boots including Fischer BCX 6, Madshus Glittertind, Crispi Svaritsen BC or Alpina Alaska.
One more argument for system bindings is that luck of the duckbill in system boots, allows for much easier and natural walking without the skis.
Some time ago I have applied the principle to my skiing: less is more and SNS XA system bindings with Madshus XCD skis fulfills my expectations.

[Teleman]

We are pretty much pinners....NNN_SNS looked to be more breakable than pins and they can get kinda jammed with snow and ice....Since we like freedom most of all we feel pins do that best....Our BC skiing is about finesse so the lighter the better and at 11oz the Rottafella's are not only lite but very strong... Out @ 180 Rebounds sometimes do not have the surface to float in seriously deep and bottomless powder.....Hence "it will not happen again" and the move to get my really long skis resurrected......Yipes the last time for the 210's was the Gulf of slides and they skied great.....The 215's were on some trail at a closed Stowe....They were a dream in corn....Waay deep powder and they will once again ride!!!! When riding the lead ski breaks the snow and the following ski is in the vortex that the lead ski makes....a tight stance where only one track appears.....slicers....hot knife through butter....javelins.... Telekid started out on nnn and light leathers but eventually got pins....He liked them both....Next set of leathers for me will be no buckle but if leathers appear at the ski swaps...with buckles....and they cost 2$ like the set I have now...well I take what the Christmas spirit gives....TM

[Raventele]

Flotation is not simply a matter of ski tips.. Narrow-waisted skis often sink like a rock , Why ? Because flotation depends on overall weight distribution and the least amount of any skiers weight is over the tips or tails of any given set of skis ESPECIALLY on descent..

The tips matter way much for flotation.
Regardless of the types of skis, alpine, XC or telemark, all skiers should never underestimate the contribution of the TIPs. They are indispensable parts that let skis be "the skis." The tips would account for more than 80 percent of the value of any skis. Without the tips, we could neither ski nor even walk on flat snow. Needless to say, we won't get any flotation if we don't have the tips on the skis.

Ski makers know very well how the tips and their adjacent fore parts are important to get flotation on powder. The skis designed for powder have not only overall wide width but asymmetrically wider fore parts including the tips. The rocker skis are abundant today. We could perceive the rocker parts of the skis as the "extensions" of the tips.

I am not sure I get why you think a slight increase in lateral resistive force ( the better the snow the less the force, btw ) causes a significant vertical dive..

It is not difficult for us to check how significant the resistive force generated by boots & bindings is as follows:

First, put a ski on floor then attach boot on the binding like this:



Second, push upper part of the boot from behind by hand then tilt it by an angle of 30 degrees. You'll feel a spring-back (or resistive) force from the boot at hand.

Since the ski has a camber, a fraction of the force you applied will be transferred to the contact surface between the fore part of ski and the floor. Such force pushes the tip of ski downward on powder.

Then let's call a three-year-old child nearby and ask her/him to conduct the same test as above on the following three cases:

1. Salomon Xadv-8/Salomon SNS XA manual
2. Scarpa Binson/Voile HD Mountaineer 3-Pin
3. Scarpa T4/Voile 3-Pin cable

As for the case No. 1, the child would be able to tilt the boots by an angle of 30 degrees easily by one hand.
As for the case No. 2, the child may succeed using two hands.
As for the case No. 3, the child may cry for help.

Since XCD skiers generally run on narrower skis, the differences in resisitive force depending on boots & bindings matter much on powder.

Very little resisitive force of NNN/BC helps skiers not only while descending but also while ascending on powder. The performance of NNN/BC during hike-up on powder is significantly better than that of 3-pin. Amazingly, the performance is comparable to that of TLT bindings which are very popular in AT world. Unfortunately, there are no tour bindings like the Voile Switchback available for 3-pin users. What's even better for NNN/BC is that you don't need a climbing support at all because of freedom of ankle. You'll be free from frustrations of levering up & down the climbing support during ski tour.

Well, #1) I never said tips were not important -- no tips , no skis.. What I said most of the skiers weight is over, obviously, over the mid-section of the ski, so the most effective way to increase flotation for some given ski would be to fatten the ski..

2) I have no idea how to calculate "ski value" based on ski tips or what that actually might even mean..

3) In recent years ski tip design has taken some seemingly odd new and interesting turns..Is it all about flotation ? No, not at all, more about turning the skis..

4) I think your resistive forces theory is seriously flawed.. The ideal is to weight the ski downwards around the ball of the foot which, whatever the camber of the ski, will move the tip of the ski upwards.. Suspend any ski between 2 sawhorses or chairs and push down towards the middle..It will bow with or without camber..That having been said, when ya leave the groomers, on whatever snow, who does not pay careful attention to their tips and adjust weight accordingly? If your theory were even close to correct, skiing powder with my K2 Backups, 3pin Hardwires and T2-ecos would REALLY be a nightmare.. How the force generated by weighting your skis gets distributed can be manipulated ; that's what skiing is..

5) The springs on the 3PC help do exactly what you seem to think they do not i.e. the offer a resistance to pitching one's weight too far forward .. System bindings are fatally flawed in that it take a LOT of effort to keep from pitching completely up on ones toes and doing exactly and easily what you think always happens on pins..

6) I really doubt your claim that system bindings are so much better on ascent than pins..Yes they have more range of motion as anyone who XC skis knows but , about the steepest incline you are going to handle with fishscales (if conditions are RIGHT) might be 15 degrees ? That's not a big deal one way or another on one binding or another..

7) Speaking of resistive forces, there's nothing worse than fishscales on low angles!!!

8) I think it's great that folks ski low-angle powder on superlite gear..I just think that in many ways system gear is simply inadequate often even for XCD..

[Johnny]

Welcome to TT Telemarcin!

Well, personally, I think the resistive force / tips theory is just *BRILLIANT*. This is the most refreshing thread ever!

TeleMarcin and CIMA, you got me. Anyone with a pair of 10.5 / 42-44 for sale?

Ron, of course it doesn't make a HUGE difference, but the duckbill do put a lot more pressure on the tips than any XC system. Rocker skis exist only since the popularity of heavy gear...

I think the most important thing to keep in mind here is that we're talking about a totally different style of skiing. Not the XCD kind we're used to. One with a different technique than telemark. Where every amount of pressure is crucial to the overall balance of the skier. I just can't wait to try it on snow... Woooooaaaaah!

[Teleman]

Don't follow the technical stuff all that well....this or that....me....it's all about feel..... AND I'm startin g to feel something.....AND.....it will be good.....head them down....angulate....swiiiiishhhhh....sigh.....ahhhhhh.....oh yeah!!!! TM

[Raventele]

We are pretty much pinners....NNN_SNS looked to be more breakable than pins and they can get kinda jammed with snow and ice....Since we like freedom most of all we feel pins do that best....Our BC skiing is about finesse so the lighter the better and at 11oz the Rottafella's are not only lite but very strong... Out @ 180 Rebounds sometimes do not have the surface to float in seriously deep and bottomless powder.....Hence "it will not happen again" and the move to get my really long skis resurrected......Yipes the last time for the 210's was the Gulf of slides and they skied great.....The 215's were on some trail at a closed Stowe....They were a dream in corn....Waay deep powder and they will once again ride!!!! When riding the lead ski breaks the snow and the following ski is in the vortex that the lead ski makes....a tight stance where only one track appears.....slicers....hot knife through butter....javelins.... Telekid started out on nnn and light leathers but eventually got pins....He liked them both....Next set of leathers for me will be no buckle but if leathers appear at the ski swaps...with buckles....and they cost 2$ like the set I have now...well I take what the Christmas spirit gives....TM

You make a great point, teleman..It's that ski that has the knee down that is , according to the Resistive Theory, supposed to create all the ski dive on pins..but if that ski is in tight alignment with the forward ski, the breaking ski, then ..well, think about it, and also consider that the whole theory relates to powder also..

[CIMA]

Hi TeleMarchin, welcome aboard!

I have sold all my wide and heavy skis/bindings/boots and nowadays I am on Salomon SNS XA for my usual stuff i.e. backcountry touring in Polish mountains (between 600 – 1800 m above sea level, long ridge walks, traverses of the whole mountain groups etc.). I have left one setup with Dynafit for alpine use i.e. haute route style traverses, and lifts supported skiing with my children.

It's surprising for me to know that another guy in Europe walked the same road as me.
I have already sold my two sets of normal telemark skis to my friends. I'm totally fascinated with NNN(SNS)/BC now.

I found SNS XA system binding absolutely trouble-free bindings easy on ascents and reliable on descent both using parallel and tele techniques. The only drawback of this system is that is works with virtually 2 models of boots i.e. Salomon X adv-8 and less powerful Salomon Xadv-6.

I couldn't agree more. The Salomon SNS XA manual is very reliable and has never let me down nor be frustrated.

You can see the difference on the description of the boots I have made for my blog:
http://www.loppet.pl/2013/11/salomon-x-adv-8.html
http://www.loppet.pl/2013/11/salomon-sns-xa-manual.html

They're great analyses.

I think that the Xadv-8 still has a little room for improvement in durability. I bought my first boots four years ago, and their coatings broke at inside parts of the hinges after three seasons of use. Now I have the second ones which are reinforced at those problematic hinges. The canvas color changed from grey to dark green.

Some time ago I have applied the principle to my skiing: less is more and SNS XA system bindings with Madshus XCD skis fulfills my expectations.

Ditto!
I'm looking for sharing more info with you on XCD (NNN/BC).

[CIMA]

Don't follow the technical stuff all that well....this or that....me....it's all about feel..... AND I'm startin g to feel something.....AND.....it will be good.....head them down....angulate....swiiiiishhhhh....sigh.....ahhhhhh.....oh yeah!!!! TM

Yes, Teleman.
Like Bruce Lee's saying, "Don't think! Feeeel!"
It's time for you to liberate yourself from 3-pin dogmas.
Give the NNN/BC a shot then feeeel what the gear is telling you.

[Teleman]

Chuckle....ha...thinking both apples and oranges taste good but one may like one better than the other....Tried nnn back when they came out....For me they were a pain to get on and off....Pins were easy....It FELT good....but we quibble over very little....One thing Cima do you ever hit your boots on stuff....Our flanged Rottafellas can take quite a beating saving our boots for another day...TM

[CIMA]

Well, #1) I never said tips were not important -- no tips , no skis.. What I said most of the skiers weight is over, obviously, over the mid-section of the ski, so the most effective way to increase flotation for some given ski would be to fatten the ski..

This is not true. Because the ski has a camber, it enables the weight, which is applied to the mid-section, to distribute onto the tips and tails. Please refer to the "Camber & rocker" section of the Wikipedia.

2) I have no idea how to calculate "ski value" based on ski tips or what that actually might even mean..

That's not difficult. Just cut off the tips from your beloved skis and then put them on the eBay. However, just the tips themselves won't sell.

3) In recent years ski tip design has taken some seemingly odd new and interesting turns..Is it all about flotation ? No, not at all, more about turning the skis..

The tip is the solid basis of all skis and indispensable. Other added values are auxiliaries that would be intangible for average skiers.

4) I think your resistive forces theory is seriously flawed.. The ideal is to weight the ski downwards around the ball of the foot which, whatever the camber of the ski, will move the tip of the ski upwards.. Suspend any ski between 2 sawhorses or chairs and push down towards the middle..It will bow with or without camber..That having been said, when ya leave the groomers, on whatever snow, who does not pay careful attention to their tips and adjust weight accordingly?

Your theory is partially right. When an impulsive force is applied onto the mid-section of the ski, it bends downward and the tip moves upward like you said. That's why many telemark skiers tend to overly bend and ride on their back knees on powder. For AT skiers, that's the only theory to which they cling to stay afloat on powder while they're making turns. In a static state and if the skis are placed on flat snow, your theory doesn't hold due to the function of the camber.

The resistive force (or pressure applied onto the front parts of the skis) is always generated when you lean forward or lift the heels of the boots and won't be negligible on powder. This force pushes the tips downward definitely. You may have seen a lot of times your telemark friends tumbling or diving while descending on powder. Most reasons for that is because the tips of their skis stuck. To check those visually, place your skies on your water bed and ride on them with wearing boots. Fasten the bindings, and lean forward or lift your heels then see how deep the tips sink in. Hopefully try the test by changing different 3-pin/boot setups: softest and sturdiest. If a NNN/BC is available at hand, please do test it also. You'll be amazed at the results.

If your theory were even close to correct, skiing powder with my K2 Backups, 3pin Hardwires and T2-ecos would REALLY be a nightmare..

Wait a minute. Is such a beefy stuff considered a XCD gear, also? No way!
Let's look back to the days when televangelist Dickie Hall in Vermont was rambling the hills on his toothpick skinny double cambers and called his ski-style XCD. You seem to have stretched the definition of XCD too much. Please don't compare a tent to a log house here. A military tent at most, hopefully.

5) The springs on the 3PC help do exactly what you seem to think they do not i.e. the offer a resistance to pitching one's weight too far forward .. System bindings are fatally flawed in that it take a LOT of effort to keep from pitching completely up on ones toes and doing exactly and easily what you think always happens on pins..

If you ski mogul, that is true.
If you ski on NNN/BC on powder and stick to your established ski-techniques, that would be often the case.
However, if you change your mind and stop telemarking on NNN/BC, that wouldn't be an issue.

6) I really doubt your claim that system bindings are so much better on ascent than pins..Yes they have more range of motion as anyone who XC skis knows but , about the steepest incline you are going to handle with fishscales (if conditions are RIGHT) might be 15 degrees ? That's not a big deal one way or another on one binding or another..

I go for ski tour with AT guys often on my SNS/BC with bringing my climbing skins. The elevation range of the tour area would be 1640 to 8800 ft. Both on powder and consolidated snow. There is no problem unless snow gets icy.

Even when you're walking on low-angle slopes, there are many small obstacles, such as bumps, fallen trees, narrow gorges, etc that you should get over in backcountry. Once you have got used to the easiness of NNN or TLT, every such the obstacle will get under your skin while your walking on 3-pin and sturdy boots.

7) Speaking of resistive forces, there's nothing worse than fishscales on low angles!!!

That's not an issue on powder because the fishscales are ineffective there.
The advantage of using the fishscales is mobility. A sense of freedom while walking and skiing using the fishscales overwhelms a sense of losses on speed.
The resistive force is way matter on low angles on powder because the bending factor described in 4) doesn't work very much there. The sturdier your gear gets, the more difficult it becomes for you to stay afloat.