The NNN/BC Truth Thread

[Raventele]

^^^ Only if you are S. Cali skier!

But here's the thing to me: I find there's really so little difference in feel or weight penalty using pins over System bindings, but pins are definitely far sturdier and far more reliable (especially in very cold conditions) and can be mounted on about any ski that can reasonably be called an XCD ski, so I have no idea why I would choose NNN or SNS over pins ..Add to all that the ability to slap on the spring cable on the Voile 3pc (just latch it on the heel while climbing or striding overland) as desired and it seems to be the clear XCD binding winner has to be pins , especially the classic 3pin/cable system..

Fun factor ? Yea, I know, the less stable the system the more reliant on exact balance the skier has to be which can make for a rush all of its own making.. interestingly, last winter opening day at Schweitzer we saw a skate skier working his way down their very long (and very nice) bunny hill..Hardpack, some of it machine made! He was having a hell of a go of it..Strangely, instantly I wished I had some lite-beyond-silly gear to try the run with him! I just wondered if my balance was there to at least make it down that run on a system setup and not stumble all over myself..It looked like fun! As far as my normal XCD gear goes, I never saw any issue at all -- Alpina Lite terrains, T4's and Voile 3pin/cables..

Cima, re the pilot system it's claimed that the second bar adds stability generally ( why would it not with 2 attachment point?) and allows one to weight the ski for tele turns more under the ball of the foot as opposed to forward of it..

[CIMA]

Hello LoveJohnny,

Thanks for your comment, too.

Personally, this is what I'm heading for. Grace, sensuality & lightness. That's why I'm so into XCD now and why I wanna make the switch to "real" XCD.

I imagine that way back in the 70s all the televangelists in the US must have had similar idea like you and started to take out their super-lightweight nordic gear out in the hills. I like NNN/BC because it enables me to interact with snow more naturally than modern telemark gear does.

Lightness isn't just what wishy-washy lazy bones are seeking for. From a broader point of view, it seems that super-light telemarking goes along the same path as Ultralight backpacking does. In their style there is a philosophy that modern telemark left behind.

It's not about control, it's about being one with the snow. I think I've been way too much into Buddhism and Taoism in the last 10 years that it begins to show on my skiing ways as well...

Yes, controlling is almost impossible for NNN/BC because of its frailty. In addition we cannot expect much support from the gear, especially from boots. That's why many telemark skiers get disastrous results on NNN/BC in the early stage of their practice.

There are no special techniques or trainings to do telemark on NNN/BC. You'll learn a lot of things from advanced XC skiers. Then mix that basic knowledge with the telemark techniques you already have.

Of course the gear needs to have some sturdiness and thermal capability because we go into backcountry area with it. Since major ski brands, such as Fischer, Rossignol, Salomon, Madshus and Alpina, have already had their series of XC/BC gear, it's not difficult for you to pick one.

The way you guys ski reminds me of the way Dolores Lachapelle described skiing in her books. It's all flow and harmony. The way it should be.

I didn't know about her. Thanks for your input.

And please: More pics, more vids, more info!!!

Okey-doke!

[CIMA]

Hello LoveJohnny,

Thanks for your comment, too.

Personally, this is what I'm heading for. Grace, sensuality & lightness. That's why I'm so into XCD now and why I wanna make the switch to "real" XCD.

I imagine that way back in the 70s all the televangelists in the US must have had similar idea like you and started to take out their super-lightweight nordic gear out in the hills. I like NNN/BC because it enables me to interact with snow more naturally than modern telemark gear does.

Lightness isn't just what wishy-washy lazy bones are seeking for. From a broader point of view, it seems that super-light telemarking goes along the same path as Ultralight backpacking does. In their style there is a philosophy that modern telemark left behind.

It's not about control, it's about being one with the snow. I think I've been way too much into Buddhism and Taoism in the last 10 years that it begins to show on my skiing ways as well...

Controlling is almost impossible for NNN/BC because of its frailty. In addition we cannot expect much support from the gear, especially from boots. That's why many telemark skiers get disastrous results on NNN/BC in the early stage of their practice.

There are no special techniques or trainings to do telemark on NNN/BC. You'll learn a lot of things from advanced XC skiers. Then mix that basic knowledge with the telemark techniques you already have.

Of course the gear needs to have some sturdiness and thermal capability because we go into backcountry area with it. Since major ski brands, such as Fischer, Rossignol, Salomon, Madshus and Alpina, have already had their series of XC/BC gear, it's not difficult for you to pick one.

The way you guys ski reminds me of the way Dolores Lachapelle described skiing in her books. It's all flow and harmony. The way it should be.

I didn't know about her. Thanks for your input.

And please: More pics, more vids, more info!!!

Okey-doke!

[CIMA]

Hi Raventele,

But here's the thing to me: I find there's really so little difference in feel or weight penalty using pins over System bindings, but pins are definitely far sturdier and far more reliable (especially in very cold conditions) and can be mounted on about any ski that can reasonably be called an XCD ski, so I have no idea why I would choose NNN or SNS over pins

I wonder how much coldness you mentioned.
The NNN/SNS bindings are made for nordic skiing that is very popular in nordic countries where average temperature goes below 15 degree F even in southern cities in winter. In northern area like Lapland in Finland for example average temp. gets way below minus 50 degree F. Maybe hundreds of thousand nordic skiers are running on the NNN/SNS over there today. If there were any problems with the bindings due to coldness, the makers would incur huge losses. It is hard to imagine for me that Rottefella, Fischer and Salomon could disregard very cold conditions when they design the bindings. That popularity of NNN/SNS bindings proves itself their reliability, doesn't it? However, I don't know what'll happen on the bindings in Alaska or polar regions.

..Add to all that the ability to slap on the spring cable on the Voile 3pc (just latch it on the heel while climbing or striding overland) as desired and it seems to be the clear XCD binding winner has to be pins , especially the classic 3pin/cable system..

I hope that win-or-lose won't be main issue here. As the subject of this thread says, I'd like to share information about NNN/BC as fairly as possible.

Let's focus on the issues of going downhill this time because most of us would admit that NNN/SNS is suitable for walking or gliding because it is tuned for that purpose. One of the most noteworthy things with NNN (SNS)/BC is that it is very good at skiing on powder because of its efficiency. I'd like to provide a specific example:
Suppose, the choice of ski is given: Madshus Epoch (165, 99-68-84). And there are three options for the boots/bindings sets as follows:

1. Salomon Xadv-8/Salomon SNS XA manual
2. Scarpa Binson/Voile HD Mountaineer 3-Pin
3. Scarpa T4/Voile 3-Pin cable

Apart from the skiing technique of rider, which set can generate floatation on powder most?
The answer is No. 1. The worst is No. 3. Why? Because No.1 is the least repulsive against the force given to the tips of skis by snow (i.e. floatation) as you go downhill on powder. The SNS has a little rubber block in front of its pin fastener, and that rubber generates repulsive force so little that floatation coming from powder surmounts it easily. Because sturdy Binson/3-pin is very repulsive, compared with SNS, the set could kill off small floatation gained from powder. The T4/3-pin/cable makes such bad situation worse because of its strongest repulsive force among three sets above. To cover those losses on floatation the skier who picked No. 3 needs to replace skis to more longer or wider ones. That wouldn't appear very efficient.

interestingly, last winter opening day at Schweitzer we saw a skate skier working his way down their very long (and very nice) bunny hill..Hardpack, some of it machine made! He was having a hell of a go of it..

Yes, some snow festival clowns here in Japan nowadays pick NNN/BC or XC to entertain their audience, too! However, if we pick gear wisely and learn the tricks of XC or NNN/BC, we can fly on slopes like Telehero does.

Cima, re the pilot system it's claimed that the second bar adds stability generally ( why would it not with 2 attachment point?) and allows one to weight the ski for tele turns more under the ball of the foot as opposed to forward of it..

Thanks for the input. I hope to see Pilot BC bindings being developed someday.

[Raventele]

Cima, Lj, not to belabour the point but, as much fun as System boots and bindings might be, WHEN the issue is choice, what possible advantage can be had by choosing NNN or SNS over pins ? I can think of nothin' , only disadvantages in terms of overall sturdiness and stability both.. Metal vs plastic and a very positive connection to the skis vs a , basically, flimsy one..Were I running a ski shop, the only reason I would suggest system gear over pins would be to save a very few ounces of weight ..Well, that, and I would say there's a certain release factor built into System bindings , that is, tip either forward or backward enough, and as most of us know, you will lever and pop right out of a System binding, but don't expect that with pins, in fact, tip beyond a certain point either way in pins and you simply lock down tighter against the bails.
If if if if the concerns are for stability, sturdiness, ability to drive skis that are fatter in the mids and the ability to handle more varied snow conditions, PINS RULE XCD!!

[Johnny]

Wow, this is like the most interesting topic I've read in years..! (I had to move it here... : )

CIMA, thank you so much for sharing this... Your input is sooooo refreshing...!

Ron, you wanted the truth? I think NNN/SNS has some real advantages over pins. I'm a total pinhead, you know that. I couldn't live without pins. In fact, I know a lot about pins but I don't know a lot about real XC. But I think CIMA has a very, very good point here:

Salomon Xadv-8/Salomon SNS XA manual
Scarpa Binson/Voile HD Mountaineer 3-Pin
Scarpa T4/Voile 3-Pin cable

Apart from the skiing technique of rider, which set can generate floatation on powder most?

The answer is No. 1. The worst is No. 3. Why? Because No.1 is the least repulsive against the force given to the tips of skis by snow (i.e. floatation) as you go downhill on powder. The SNS has a little rubber block in front of its pin fastener, and that rubber generates repulsive force so little that floatation coming from powder surmounts it easily. Because sturdy Binson/3-pin is very repulsive, compared with SNS, the set could kill off small floatation gained from powder. The T4/3-pin/cable makes such bad situation worse because of its strongest repulsive force among three sets above. To cover those losses on floatation the skier who picked No. 3 needs to replace skis to more longer or wider ones. That wouldn't appear very efficient.

This qualifies as "The truth" to me. You won't hear a lot of people sharing the truth like this. We all should be very grateful to CIMA for reminding us...

Also, the weight. There's a huge difference in weight between XC boots and heavy, bulky leathers made for BC.

But most important: comfort. There's nothing like XC boots when it comes to comfort. Due to their very nature, leather boots have to be hard and stiff, because people want that lateral stiffness for better control, while XC BC boots are so soft and so comfy. Even modern boots don't compare to XC boots. I threw away my brand new T4 and Excursions after a week cause I felt like a robot trying to ski with those things.

So yeah, I think there's some very nice advantages in going ultra-light. But just like most of the very simple truths in this world, people will take years to get it. As always, it's only a matter of taste. But taste preferences do develop with knowledge...

it seems that super-light telemarking goes along the same path as Ultralight backpacking does.

I'm totally into this. I shouldn't mention it, but there's nothing I like more than backpacking without a backpack, hiking barefoot and skiing naked.

Thank you guys for sharing all this stuff...

[Raventele]

" Salomon Xadv-8/Salomon SNS XA manual
Scarpa Binson/Voile HD Mountaineer 3-Pin
Scarpa T4/Voile 3-Pin cable

Apart from the skiing technique of rider, which set can generate floatation on powder most?

The answer is No. 1. The worst is No. 3. Why? Because No.1 is the least repulsive against the force given to the tips of skis by snow (i.e. floatation) as you go downhill on powder. The SNS has a little rubber block in front of its pin fastener, and that rubber generates repulsive force so little that floatation coming from powder surmounts it easily. Because sturdy Binson/3-pin is very repulsive, compared with SNS, the set could kill off small floatation gained from powder. The T4/3-pin/cable makes such bad situation worse because of its strongest repulsive force among three sets above. To cover those losses on floatation the skier who picked No. 3 needs to replace skis to more longer or wider ones. That wouldn't appear very efficient. "

?? I think there's a bit of , well quite a bit of, confusion here..^^^
Flotation is not simply a matter of ski tips.. Narrow-waisted skis often sink like a rock , Why ? Because flotation depends on overall weight distribution and the least amount of any skiers weight is over the tips or tails of any given set of skis ESPECIALLY on descent..And besides, the snow is being broken first by the tips and fore parts of the skis , not the bindings!!! You can compensate, or at least try to, by increasing the length of the skis to decrease psi, but because a skiers overall weight is so mainly centered over the midsection of his skis this turns out to be not the best solution.. The simplest solution is, as you mention to ski a wider ski, which , of course , pretty quickly makes the SNS and NNN options ineffective/ impossible as those bindings are really limited to less than 70mm in the waist..I am not sure I get why you think a slight increase in lateral resistive force ( the better the snow the less the force, btw ) causes a significant vertical dive..Further, being that the cables on a 3PC are essentially behind the snow being displaced by the pins (actually the fronts of the skis do most of initial displacement), there cannot be any measurable difference of resistance between the pins with or without cables..Maybe what you are, essentially, telling us is that your technique with system gear REQUIRES that you ride the backs of the skis ? I would not conflate skiing in the manner of a water skier with floating on the snow..
Note that I do not say one cannot ski powder or the consolidated spring and summer snow on about anything one wants..But very few of us have the luxury of ONLY skiing when conditions are perfectly amenable to gear that works well in a very narrow range..
I have skied Xterrains ( a mere 170 Cm and only a 68 mm waist) with 3pc and T4's in about all snow conditions..In powder I have NEVER experienced the terrible results you seem to predict..And I would also note that those boots and bindings are a decent match to skis up to 85 Mm and 185 Cm without issue , and that's certainly far far out of the range of any System gear possibility..
BTW, in the XCD thread, virtually everyone is on pins or 3pc and leathers or lite plastics..Most in Vermont are just skiing pins and sturdy (often double-buckle) leathers..

[CIMA]

Overall performance may not be a thing that telemark skiers have been looking for. From advent of modern telemark ski in the 70s, its overall performance has never been a match for alpine ski. However, many of them found telemark interesting because it let them feel a superb buoyancy on powder, a sense of freedom or the fun of turns. Nowadays BC-ski lovers have freedom of choice of gear and often switch it depending on snow conditions and terrains. They don't expect each gear to have good overall performance much. What matters is to find in which area NNN/BC has an edge and enables us to have more interesting experience compared to others. Averaging sometimes turns you off. While it has good overall performance, not so many people buy a Toyota Corolla for fun.

[CIMA]

Flotation is not simply a matter of ski tips.. Narrow-waisted skis often sink like a rock , Why ? Because flotation depends on overall weight distribution and the least amount of any skiers weight is over the tips or tails of any given set of skis ESPECIALLY on descent..

The tips matter way much for flotation.
Regardless of the types of skis, alpine, XC or telemark, all skiers should never underestimate the contribution of the TIPs. They are indispensable parts that let skis be "the skis." The tips would account for more than 80 percent of the value of any skis. Without the tips, we could neither ski nor even walk on flat snow. Needless to say, we won't get any flotation if we don't have the tips on the skis.

Ski makers know very well how the tips and their adjacent fore parts are important to get flotation on powder. The skis designed for powder have not only overall wide width but asymmetrically wider fore parts including the tips. The rocker skis are abundant today. We could perceive the rocker parts of the skis as the "extensions" of the tips.

I am not sure I get why you think a slight increase in lateral resistive force ( the better the snow the less the force, btw ) causes a significant vertical dive..

It is not difficult for us to check how significant the resistive force generated by boots & bindings is as follows:

First, put a ski on floor then attach boot on the binding like this:



Second, push upper part of the boot from behind by hand then tilt it by an angle of 30 degrees. You'll feel a spring-back (or resistive) force from the boot at hand.

Since the ski has a camber, a fraction of the force you applied will be transferred to the contact surface between the fore part of ski and the floor. Such force pushes the tip of ski downward on powder.

Then let's call a three-year-old child nearby and ask her/him to conduct the same test as above on the following three cases:

1. Salomon Xadv-8/Salomon SNS XA manual
2. Scarpa Binson/Voile HD Mountaineer 3-Pin
3. Scarpa T4/Voile 3-Pin cable

As for the case No. 1, the child would be able to tilt the boots by an angle of 30 degrees easily by one hand.
As for the case No. 2, the child may succeed using two hands.
As for the case No. 3, the child may cry for help.

Since XCD skiers generally run on narrower skis, the differences in resisitive force depending on boots & bindings matter much on powder.

Very little resisitive force of NNN/BC helps skiers not only while descending but also while ascending on powder. The performance of NNN/BC during hike-up on powder is significantly better than that of 3-pin. Amazingly, the performance is comparable to that of TLT bindings which are very popular in AT world. Unfortunately, there are no tour bindings like the Voile Switchback available for 3-pin users. What's even better for NNN/BC is that you don't need a climbing support at all because of freedom of ankle. You'll be free from frustrations of levering up & down the climbing support during ski tour.

[Raventele]

I get what you are saying about Tele having chased Alpine for the 40 years , give or take..but at this point the difference has probably been narrowed to its ultimate limit.. And , of course, there really are no "tele-specific" skis even anymore..Are ultra-lite BC skis even specific to tele ? No, no one has to tele on them; alpine turns on any gear are simpler and easier and some ski the lightest gear and yet very very seldom drop a knee.
Which brings one around to the ultimate conclusion that no matter how or why you tele, the only reason to bother is for fun , irrespective of your gear choice..
As far as XCD goes, obviously, a "lite" (relative) freeheel will always rule, for tele or not.
But System gear ? Choose it for a tiny weight savings, a bit more safety, and, because you find it more fun..
It would be dishonest to try and promote it for stability, sturdiness/durability and broad applicability..

SNS may transfer less of your resistive forces simply because it's incapable..You topple over easily as seen in some of your vids..
Further, no one needs to get on toe tips..In fact on 3pc is perfect for doing parallel turns as well as tele..And on a parallel turn, there's even arguably a "lifting" effect..It might be argued that those that sit back on pins doing tele are creating far more to help in flotation than those standing on their toes on System gear, which happens far too often
All things being equal, a fatter mid-section increases flotation more effectively than other methods..
Depending on exact "push" tips may bow upwards..