End of an era?

[connyro]

In all fairness have you skied both systems with the same boots and same skis?

I think very few here can actually make that claim.

I've skied both systems extensively on many setups so I can draw certain conclusions, just like you do with your comparisons.

Boots are better - Actually, I find quite the opposite when you look at what is available in leather these days.

I don't prefer leather boots necessarily, so that's not a filter for me. Lots and lots of plastic boots will work with 3-pins.

Pressure on the ski during a turn is better - don't feel any difference actually when I adjust for the pivot difference. Better is perhaps subjective to someone who wants a certain feel and learned to ski that way.

This is more than a 'feel' issue. NNN puts you on your toes much more than 3-pins. This decreases pressure control on the ski.

Lateral control is better - this I am adamantly in disagreement with. The vertical ridges in the center of the sole on NNN provide just as much lateral support as the wings on the 3 pin. I've neither been able to feel or measure a noticeable difference while skiing or testing the boots on a bench. I think this is just a myth that keeps on spreading for no reason. I would very much agree that the lateral control between a plastic shell boot and a leather, molded sole boot is different, but that has nothing to do with the binding.

The toe-box of a 3-pin binding come into play when turning and for stability. The Telebulldog 3-pin has superior lateral control when compared to the Voile 3-pin, due to the beefer and extended toe-box. There's no toe-box on the NNN bindings. It makes a big difference.

I think what you really meant to say was this, and it's the only thing that I can say really holds true: You can buy and ski plastic shell boots with the 3 pin.

Nope. I'm saying that one system excels at touring and one system is better for telemark turns.

[MikeK]

I've skied both systems extensively on many setups so I can draw certain conclusions, just like you do with your comparisons.

So you're saying you've never made an apples to apples comparison. That's what I asked.

I don't prefer leather boots necessarily, so that's not a filter for me. Lots and lots of plastic boots will work with 3-pins.

It's not a filter, it's a direct comparison. Your validation of a certain system relies directly on compatility with plastic as I pointed out below.

NNN puts you on your toes much more than 3-pins. This decreases pressure control on the ski.

Poor technique puts you on your toes, it has nothing to with any binding. It's not hard to keep your foot flat on BOF with NNN - you also might want to take a close look at yourself skiing with pins and see how often your BOF is actually down. I've seen way more pinners on their toes than NNN skiers.

The toe-box of a 3-pin binding come into play when turning and for stability. The Telebulldog 3-pin has superior lateral control when compared to the Voile 3-pin, due to the beefer and extended toe-box. There's no toe-box on the NNN bindings. It makes a big difference.

Explain to me the difference in mechanics in the resulting turning moment between a "toe box" and ridge under the boot. Also, when you actually lift your heel, how much stays in contact?

Nope. I'm saying that one system excels at touring and one system is better for telemark turns.

Yeah, maybe... but it seems one is inherently biased toward one vs. the other. Plastic boots case in point.

[lowangle al]

both of them work, if you know how to ski, you can ski either IMO

[connyro]

Mike, I understand your arguments. I don't agree. I've logged many many miles on both systems. I've noticed the difference between different manufacturers' 3-pin bindings. I've observed, discussed, and experimented with NNN-BC and different 3-pin bindings over the years. There's a difference. The technique is different when turning NNN-BC and 3-pins. One system is better than the other at transferring the skier's input to the ski. From what I understand based on your own posts, you are a beginner at tele turns. If you had more experience, you may understand the differences better and also your side-by-side comparisons would carry more weight.

[MikeK]

One system is better than the other at transferring the skier's input to the ski. From what I understand based on your own posts, you are a beginner at tele turns. If you had more experience, you may understand the differences better and also your side-by-side comparisons would carry more weight.

SMACKDOWN!

Good show old boy. Way to show your character. I was waiting for this

If you can't win an argument on technical merit, insult someone's integrity... ahhh... the internet at its finest.


And do you remember how you got Ron banned from here and dogpiled on me at BC Talk? I haven't forgotten...

[connyro]

Sorry Mike. I guess your anecdotal evidence is better than my anecdotal evidence. My bad.

Christ, one little disagreement with you and it turns into a negative attitude and threats 'banning'. You are too defensive. How is pointing out experience insulting? I'm sorry but 'technical merit' AND experience are both valid arguments.

[MikeK]

Sorry Mike. I guess your anecdotal evidence is better than my anecdotal evidence. My bad.

Christ, one little disagreement with you and it turns into a negative attitude and threats 'banning'. You are too defensive. How is pointing out experience insulting? I'm sorry but 'technical merit' AND experience are both valid arguments.

Where was the threat? I didn't threaten you with anything. You imagined I thought that and proceeded to throw it in my face.

I only said I remember how you are.

It's not anecdotal. You attempted to explain how your experience led you to a certain opinion. I asked if you had apples to apples comps. You didn't answer and deflected and created another strawman to attack.

I asked you to explain the mechanics of of support on the outside of the boot is different than lateral support on the center of the boot. I'm not an idiot, I clearly can see the difference between a ST and a Spike in terns of wing length. Again, no answer. Deflection. Personal attack.

This one's not so moderate. Go fuck yourself.

I'm done with this shit.

[connyro]

Wow Mike.

[merak]

I haven't read everything on this topic but in my Country it's the begining of an era.

We are 50 years behind the West so all the scrap comes to our country including cars, electronics, skis, whatever.

I witnessed the beginning of ski touring in my country in the late 90's. There was a lot of skis from former DDR army which invaded the Mountain Rescues formations: unknown mark of white skis with Silvrettas 300 with skins that attached in a mechanical way.

I've just talked to a person today that buys(I think) scrap from Germany to find me some cheap wide and light skis. If all comes well next step would be to describe him the duck bill and telemark bindings(nobody wants them so very cheap stuff)

[iBjorn]

If someone is good at finding old telemark stuff, it is a good opportunity for an internet business. I think there is a demand for old boots, bindings, binding parts, riser plates, etc - just put it up at eBay. Romania is a large seller of vintage computers I have seen on eBay.