End of an era?

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connyro
needs to take stock of his life
needs to take stock of his life
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Re: End of an era?

Post by connyro » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:39 am

Cannatonic wrote:I'd rate the in-and-out capability of both about the same, that's not where the difference lies...
Cannatonic wrote:the pins & system bindings seem equally vital to me.
I agree with both these points Canna. However, if I HAD to choose between the two, for the type of skiing that I do, I would take the 3-pins hands-down. Boots are better, pressure on the ski during a turn is better, lateral control is better. If the 3-pins have cables, you have a backup for breakage while skiing too! IF I toured more and turned less, I would go with NNN-BC every time.

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lilcliffy
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Re: End of an era?

Post by lilcliffy » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:51 am

Cannatonic wrote:I'd rate the in-and-out capability of both about the same
I am with Mike on this one- especially if the snow is moisture rich- I have always found NNNBC much easier to get in and out of than 3 pin ( I am speaking strictly of the manual NNNBC bindings here). This is actually a big deal in my backwoods. I am constantly crossing brooks, and having to take my skis off (for some reason the physio-chemistry of the water in my locality prevents stream/spring water from freezing- even at -30C???!!)
actually ease of entry & exit is one reason why some of us prefer the Super Tele to the Mountaineer.
Same reason I prefer the super telemark as well.
Many people with odd feet will never fit into the NNNBC sole boots. I literally gave up the sport for about 10 years until I found welted, single-piece leather boots that could be stretched for my feet.
This is a big deal...And given the popularity of NNNBC- I cannot really figure out why Rotte and/or the boot manufacturers don't make a wider range of boot lasts...
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.



MikeK

Re: End of an era?

Post by MikeK » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:52 am

connyro wrote: I agree with both these points Canna. However, if I HAD to choose between the two, for the type of skiing that I do, I would take the 3-pins hands-down. Boots are better, pressure on the ski during a turn is better, lateral control is better. If the 3-pins have cables, you have a backup for breakage while skiing too! IF I toured more and turned less, I would go with NNN-BC every time.
In all fairness have you skied both systems with the same boots and same skis?

I think very few here can actually make that claim.

I'd actually contest every one of your statements when it's an A to A comparison.

Boots are better - Actually, I find quite the opposite when you look at what is available in leather these days.

Pressure on the ski during a turn is better - don't feel any difference actually when I adjust for the pivot difference. Better is perhaps subjective to someone who wants a certain feel and learned to ski that way.

Lateral control is better - this I am adamantly in disagreement with. The vertical ridges in the center of the sole on NNN provide just as much lateral support as the wings on the 3 pin. I've neither been able to feel or measure a noticeable difference while skiing or testing the boots on a bench. I think this is just a myth that keeps on spreading for no reason. I would very much agree that the lateral control between a plastic shell boot and a leather, molded sole boot is different, but that has nothing to do with the binding.

I think what you really meant to say was this, and it's the only thing that I can say really holds true: You can buy and ski plastic shell boots with the 3 pin.



MikeK

Re: End of an era?

Post by MikeK » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:05 am

lilcliffy wrote: I am with Mike on this one- especially if the snow is moisture rich- I have always found NNNBC much easier to get in and out of than 3 pin ( I am speaking strictly of the manual NNNBC bindings here). This is actually a big deal in my backwoods. I am constantly crossing brooks, and having to take my skis off (for some reason the physio-chemistry of the water in my locality prevents stream/spring water from freezing- even at -30C???!!)
Now I know everyone skis in different conditions, but I've only ever had one issue with entry on NNN-BC, and I've mentioned it before. It's when the lever box gets filled with the snow the lever won't go down all the way and lock. I was able to wipe it out with my finger everytime enough to make the lever lock.

I've had the same issue with pins though. The toe cup gets all filled with snow, and you can't actually engage the pins and lock down the bale. You have to brush it out (or chisel it out with a pole if it's slush), carefully place the ski down as to not fill it with snow again, try to line up your pin holes (which the ski wants to slide forward - this always drives me nuts with pins). Once you get that, you can usually clamp the bale.

I've never once had the actual clamps on NNN-BC bind or fill with ice or snow. Even if they look clogged, I've always just jammed the boot in and and they've cleaned themselves. I'm waiting for the day when I snap them from doing this, but I doubt that would happen unless they were full of real ice. I don't ski through water, so I'm not expecting that to happen.



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lowangle al
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Re: End of an era?

Post by lowangle al » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:40 am

FWIW, after 30 years skiing three pins w\ leather my wife found after one day that a riva cable was easier to put on.

Thankfully I was never able to fit into an nnn-bc boot and now all of my skis and boots are still interchangeable.



MikeK

Re: End of an era?

Post by MikeK » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:53 am

lowangle al wrote:FWIW, after 30 years skiing three pins w\ leather my wife found after one day that a riva cable was easier to put on.
I'd believe it...
lowangle al wrote: Thankfully I was never able to fit into an nnn-bc boot and now all of my skis and boots are still interchangeable.
Cool... but is that necessary? Do you want to ski your fat powder boards with lightweight leathers? Or your skinny XC skis with your T2s?

I always kept my pins on my S98s for that very same reason. Johnny and I had talked about it quite a bit off of here... I kept telling him I wasn't going to switch because of the versatility. Well... I finally realized that was a bunch of BS and I was kidding myself. I'm not going to ski those skis with T2s (I could, but why? I'd rather use my nice, low camber, smooth base Tuas). Once Excursions went out the window for me, it wasn't even a consideration. There was really no reason to keep any of my XCD skis with pins. I'm considering my Tuas old school Teles (which is cool, and deserve 3 pins and a cable). I don't dislike pins, I'm actually most excited about skiing those Tuas but if versatility is what is holding you back, you really need to think about what you are using the skis for...

For someone that has a small quiver and wants to ski as much as they can with a couple pairs of boots, it makes sense - but just because the plain ST is going away, doesn't mean you can't do that. In that sense there are tons of better options.



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lowangle al
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Re: End of an era?

Post by lowangle al » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:02 am

I have been skiing some tua sumos lately, 78mm waist and 100 mm tip and soft flexing, with leather boots. It's a fantastic ski. Ski of the year in 2003, and I can see why. There are some on Ebay right now.



MikeK

Re: End of an era?

Post by MikeK » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:08 am

lowangle al wrote:I have been skiing some tua sumos lately, 78mm waist and 100 mm tip and soft flexing, with leather boots. It's a fantastic ski. Ski of the year in 2003, and I can see why. There are some on Ebay right now.
I'd kill for that lineup Sumo, Mito? and Helium. I could have bought new, undrilled Heliums from Italy. Kicking myself that I didn't.

I decided to do a little repair to mine and why they aren't mounted yet. Trying to get as much life as I can from them. They have almost the same shape as my favorite ski with less camber and a better flex, nearly the same weight. I can't imagine how I wouldn't love them.



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lowangle al
Posts: 2755
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:36 pm
Location: Pocono Mts / Chugach Mts
Ski style: BC with focus on downhill perfection
Favorite Skis: powder skis
Favorite boots: Scarpa T4
Occupation: Retired cement mason. Current job is to take my recreation as serious as I did my past employment.

Re: End of an era?

Post by lowangle al » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:15 am

"Do you want to ski your fat powder boards with lightweight leathers? Yes, but the sumos may be the widest I would take for mixed or unknown condition.

Do I want to ski my skinniest skis with the T2s? I haven't tried it lately but I never liked it. I got too much edge, it reminded me of when started ice skating and got my skates sharpened for the first time. I tried a hockey stop and got body slammed. The only ski I wouldn't use the t2s with would be the xcd-gts.



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Cannatonic
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Re: End of an era?

Post by Cannatonic » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:36 pm

Good news! All of us hippie pinheads can relax, I just heard back from Rottefella:

>>Hi,
It depends on which version you mean. We continue with Super Telemark without cable, but the version with cable went out of production many years ago. You see at the attached photo which we will continue with. Have a great day :o)

Mvh/Best regards
TRINE W. STENSETH
Sales Coordinator

M: +47 92 65 47 93

Rottefella AS
Industriveien 1, NO-3490 Klokkarstua
www.rottefella.no
----
Hello - someone told me you discontinued the Super Telemark bindings. I hope this is not correct! Please continue making this binding. Thank you,
"All wisdom is to be gained through suffering"
-Will Lange (quoting Inuit chieftan)



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