The NNN/BC Truth Thread

[MikeK]

lilcliffy, you are absolutely correct in my case.

I wasn't duped by marketing. I was duped by many responses on forums that NNN/BC was vastly inferior to pins. And I definitely don't blame those that have had issues with whatever system and found what works for them, everyone has different goals in mind.

In my case when I had a NNN setup that was pretty good I was so impressed that I couldn't help but advocate it. I was under the impression based on low end EMS rental gear and internet experts that it was garbage. When I first skied my Eons with NNN and the Alaska it blew me away. That was my first NNN BC setup. I bought that on a whim and as more of a XC setup but it turned out to be a lot of fun on the down.

As far as it being a Telemark binding, not sure if Rottefella ever meant for it to be that, but that magazine article I posted did mention it as such. NN wasn't a Telemark binding, it was XC binding. People used it for Telemarking and eventually 75mm took over (by 75mm I mean NN with activity i.e. cables, springs, etc).

After skiing for a while now on both systems, I'm at the point where I don't feel a lot of difference. I think ski flex and sidecut play more into the equation for the skis I have than the binding. I'm fairly convinced a ski like the S98 would be just as DH focused with the Svartisen NNN-BC as with the NN version.

[Cannatonic]

whoa, haven't checked back on this thread, sorry to whack the hornet's nest. 'nuff respect for the volunteers that run the site for everyone, if someone is making your life miserable you need to delete their account, of course.

However, it's also possible for well-adjusted, friendly people to be relentlessly trolled until they go over the edge. I guess I'm saying "let he who is without dysfunctional behavior cast the first stone". I've seen very harmless, enthusiastic posts by Tman get a response of flaming nastiness. People have attacked him and others for posting *too many* pictures of the wrong type of skiing. Now we don't have the daily pictures I used to enjoy.

my point is….this NNNBC obsession seems at least as dysfunctional as anything I've seen. A sense of witch-hunt seems to linger in the air - every expression of dissent must be tracked down and addressed with pages and pages of NNNBC orthodoxy. It's weird - all other forums I've seen around the world seem to easily accept the strengths and weaknesses of various bindings without getting upset or arguing.

i.e., if you've been posting away about NNNBC "Truth" like some kind of religious orthodoxy for 50 pages then you don't get to call other people crazy anymore! suggest everyone get a thicker skin. Yes! People are going to say your equipment sucks at some point. People even got offended by pictures of women (and men!) enjoying spring skiing festivals. New members are even subjected to an NNNBC-shakedown! I'm new to tele - is it always like this?

[MikeK]

Perhaps best if this response stays private.

[anrothar]

Sorry for the interruption, but I have an on topic, drama-free post.

I skied NNNBC almost exclusively for quite a few years, but after trying AT toepieces and chopped down AT boots, I've finally decided that all of my skis for non-groomed trails will have that set up.

What I didn't like about nnnbc:

-In size 48/49, all of the boots that I tried were too torsionally floppy in the forefoot for me. The difference in edge control with the AT toepiece setup is night and day. The AT setup takes much less energy and concentration to traverse, skate ski, turn on ice, etc than nnnbc, despite the initial increase in weight.

-No double boots. I do a lot of camping via skis. The ability to have ccf liners that I can wear in my sleeping bag and around camp is a huge plus.

-Inability to deal with water. With the AT setup, I can ski right through overflow or remove the skis and wade right through a creek, even at pretty cold temps. Once on the other side, I just quickly remove the boot, dump out the standing water, wring out my socks, put everything back on and I'm good to go. The ccf insulation in the liners doesn't absorb water, so my feet stay warm.

-Issues with wet snow packing up in the bindings or behind the toebar and freezing.


I haven't experienced any of the negative foot issues Luc discusses on his site with the AT toepiece setup. We do have a lot of situations where overflow and open water present themselves up here, and being able to ski through instead of around can save a lot of time and effort. See video below for examples from the specific event Luc is discussing.

*EDIT: Not my video, and I'm not in it.



I modify my AT boots to get forefoot flex, which greatly improves kick and glide without seeming to effect edging.

[anrothar]

Also, I was able to modify a set of NNNBC Magnums to prevent icing/packing up with snow. Where the guys in the Wilderness Ski Classics seemed to be dumping hot water is not where I've experienced the problems with inoperable bindings. For me, every time I couldn't get in or out of the binding and I had cleared the packed snow behind the toebar, it was due to snow or ice packed in between the moving, curved metal piece that clamps down on the back of the toebar and the plastic behind it. After looking over the bindings, drawing them out to understand how, exactly the parts move during operation, it seemed to me that if you can open the lever up front, then the problem can't be ice inside the plastic area. Then I looked over my bindings and figured out what I could remove that would fix the problem. Turns out there's some unnecessary plastic, that you can remove without sacrificing structural integrity. Since removing that plastic, the bindings never froze up on me.

In tact nnnbc magnum:

Modified:

[bgregoire]

Smart move on the mod Anro.

I or my ski buddies had both your and your mates' issues (only one to the point of being unable to remove the boot from the binding though) with NNN/BC even though we never have to cross rivers with them on. The problem usually arises when the skis are not brought indoors during a multiday trip, camping or hut to hut touring, allowing the snow to accumulate pack up and turn to ice inside.

I've read that most AW runners have switched to modded AT boots. With the NNN/BCs though, how do or did you guyz cope with boot water retention, freezing, basically, foot care. Sounds like many feet end up quite beating after the 4 day trek. What are the best tricks to keep the feet healthy while on NNN-BC?

[anrothar]

The best method I found for drying out nnnbc boots overnight, while camping outside, was to put one of the big, 8hr hand warmers inside each boot, then put the boots in these, sealed up as tight as possible:

One of the main reasons I switched is that it always seemed to be a losing battle with moisture in the boots, especially over more than one day.

[bgregoire]

The best method I found for drying out nnnbc boots overnight, while camping outside, was to put one of the big, 8hr hand warmers inside each boot, then put the boots in these, sealed up as tight as possible:

One of the main reasons I switched is that it always seemed to be a losing battle with moisture in the boots, especially over more than one day.

Wow, talk about coping. I gather the glued super gaiter / VBL combo has been tried and tried there. Guess there are two many river/lake traverses to be done.

With those modded ATs, my guess is you've got to modify you K&G technique a little. I'm thinking your losing a little of the stride efficiency but that overall, the downhill control bust especially the confort make it worth it?

Here's a question, when or if you go out backcountry touring for a day for FUN, would you bring you modded AT kit or the NNN/BC kit?

[anrothar]

Wow, talk about coping. I gather the glued super gaiter / VBL combo has been tried and tried there. Guess there are two many river/lake traverses to be done.

With those modded ATs, my guess is you've got to modify you K&G technique a little. I'm thinking your losing a little of the stride efficiency but that overall, the downhill control bust especially the confort make it worth it?

Here's a question, when or if you go out backcountry touring for a day for FUN, would you bring you modded AT kit or the NNN/BC kit?

With unmodified AT boots, kick/grip is noticeably diminished and you definitely need to modify your striding. It ends up being more of a 'fall' forward with your knee bent then kick than a compress and kick. After taking a hole saw to the forefoot, they flex forward like a stiff nnn bc boot and you can kick normally. The biggest downside is dry weight. The boots weigh more.

Due to the torsional stiffness issues I was having with nnnbc boots in my size(Rossi BCX9, Alpina BC2250, a few others), I now always use the AT boot setup. Especially on singletrack or anything involving turning, the increase in control makes the skiing waaay more fun for me. I understand that others might have different results or even/especially more skill with the nnnbc setups.

My girlfriend gets foot pain in the AT boots she has, so for now, she's still on nnnbc. She's planning on purchasing Intuition liners next season, so those should solve the issue. NNNBC boots in her size have much more torsional 'stiffness'(resistance) than they do in larger sizes. I think nordic boot designers haven't figured out that when they increase the length of something, they also need to beef it up to counter the increase in leverage.

[anrothar]

VBLs by themselves certainly solve the moisture in the boot from sweat issue. My feet have always gotten colder in VBLs than out of them though. I always end up with a puddle of sweat in the VBL. VBL jackets work great for me, since I can adjust the amount of insulation over them and vent them to prevent myself from getting saturated. I've also done plenty of trips where soaking the boot in overflow or a creek was a non-issue. But it does occasionally become an issue, so it's a nice benefit for sure.