Update from the XCD Knights

[MikeK]

And hey, I can't speak for the Knights, but we don't care about using old yardsale junk for XCD skiing! Why not!

I looked all over when I first wanted to get into this for an old pair of skis. Every pair of old E99s I saw for sale were asking more than I paid for my brand new Glitts. Granted, the quality is not as high, but they got the job done enough for me to realize that double camber isn't the ideal ski for most situations in the BC. It's OK for some stuff, and I like to have a pair around, but I'd gladly give up a little touring efficiency for some grip and good flexing ski with a little sidecut.

I also went the Teleman route with boots. I tried some old leathers and some cheap, new boots and decided the old leathers were better. The pair I bought skinned my heels within the first hour of use. I tried stuff and stuck with them for a bit until curiosity got the better of me and I popped on a pair of Alpina Alaska boots.

WOW what a difference. Better ski control, better k+g flex, absolute comfort and no blisters!! I haven't touched those old leathers since, and I can't seem to even give them away.

The rest is history. Trying new gear and bigger skis I found my sweet spot. Now I think integrated skins and wax skis might be the ticket. It's not new, but waxless has a lot of tradeoffs... it was a good learning experience and I'll def keep a pair or two for when wax just won't work and I don't want to ski on a skin, mainly when it's boney. My waxless skis would probably relegated to major rock ski duty. With winters like this one, they'd be the one I skied the most, but with winters like the year before, I'd hardly touch them.

[connyro]

What about the term "Norpine" as in "nordic-alpine"? I remember hearing that term many years ago but I fear it's fallen into disuse. Is this an opportunity to bring it back? Is it the same as XCD? Is it alpine skiing on nordic gear or nordic skiing on alpine gear?

[connyro]

So you've never actually used plastic telemark boots?

They are not remotely as rigid as alpine boots, and the moldable versions fit as well as any footwear. Try them, then you can go back to knocking them. Not very many people seem to go back.

Resistance to heel lift must be defined by the mechanism that applies it? OK, for the sake of discussion, though unless you're looking at your bindings it makes no difference how the resistance is generated. T2's work just fine in 3 pins. Now are we closer to XCD in your mind?

I had my first pair of Vectors set up with inserts, to use 3 pins or Switchbacks. Spent lots of time on both, and have ended up using the Switchbacks exclusively. The reason? Keeping machine screws tight with 3 pins' small bolt circle and metal to metal contact between countersinks and screwheads just didn't work. The screws back out in short order, loctite or vibra tite be damned. Performance was great though, and the light weight was noticeable. The Switchbacks are just fine, more versatile, on the flats or at 40˚.

Back to old style XC gear- Its traditional in that it hasn't advanced in decades. That's why it hasn't improved. No change means no change. It still isn't any better on hills than it was before it didn't change. All the energy spent on improvements seems to have gone to other disciplines. Telemark stole the thunder on one side, Skate on another.

And the forum. Sure, the place can run how ever. Its the wild West. But for an analogy, wouldn't it be odd if someone started a forum, astronomyblather.net, then got all up in anyone that brought up telescope use rather than binoculars? 'We only do binoculars here. Telescopes are too complicated. Piss off!'

Someone with the right sense of humor could maybe do that, as a gag, and see how long 'til it dies. I guess. Every now and then one of the lurkers would come in from orbit, comment a couple times about eyepieces and clock drives, false advertising, hypocrisy. Then go back to enjoying the view when the clouds clear. Once in a blue moon you'll hook a really wild one.

It could be fun for awhile, but year after year? Very strange.

I understand and agree with most of your points: well put! However, nobody is being told to "piss off". I think the Knights are simply attempting to cut through the BS XCD marketing ploy and actually defining the term while considering modern equipment. Based on the XCD Knights definition, I'm not permitted to consider myself an XCD skier. I don't care for floppy little dishrag XC boots for BC skiing.
Vectors/SB/Excursions (one of my favorite setups) is far outside the Knights' definition of XCD, and I would have to agree: it's BC telemark! I'm still hung up on the idea that XCD can be done on groomers and lifts at resorts, it just seems like a sideshow at that point, but then again, I'm not the sharpest ski on the rack. I also have a hard time understanding how the Alaska boots qualify as XCD: those things are NOT XC boots IMO.

[MikeK]

I'm not knocking plastic boots. I know the mechanism that bothers my feet, and it wouldn't matter if it were flexible or not. I can make it happen in leather boots actually if I'm continually skiing downhill, but it takes a lot longer.

And I actually have a plan to get some Excursions for lite Tele. Mainly for riding lifts when I can't XC ski... my passion is being in the woods, not skiing steep and deep.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying about old gear, and the new stuff may not be any better for the down, but it's leaps and bounds better for what it is intended for... kinda like the fact that Tele and Alpine gear has gotten way better for the down.

Listen, I don't just frequent this forum. I read others and talk with other skiers. It's a fact that most people skiing 'XCD' these days have blown right past the updated, burly Nordic gear and went right into the light tele domain. Vectors, Excursions. Annums with switchbacks a high cuff boots. Whatever. I know why they do it, and I'm SURE it's much easier to ski the tiny bit of downs most people are skiing with this, but the fact still remains you can ski with true XCD gear which is a bit more XC focused.

I've also gotten a lot of feedback from those skiing in groups with this gear. They always say the same thing. Yeah I'm slow on the flats, but I kill 'em on the climbs and downs. No doubt, no one would ever argue that. But the people using the more Tele focused gear are usually very turn focused individuals coming from an Alpine background. They also usually ski at resorts either alpine or heavy tele. They don't care about being a little slow on flats.

The people I MEET that are using what the Knights call XCD gear usually care way more about touring efficiency. I've met quite a few that can crank sweet turns with NNN-BC and straight skis and work at that all the time. They don't have any interest in skiing heavy, turn-focused gear unless they are maybe riding lifts. When you actually get out an ski this type of stuff in your area, you run into these people. Often times they want to chat because they have similar interests. Honestly most people ask me about the Alaskas... no shit. If I had a dime for every time I'd be a ski bum right now. They've either just bought a pair, are looking into getting a pair or have a pair at home they haven't tried yet.

[MikeK]

I also have a hard time understanding how the Alaska boots qualify as XCD: those things are NOT XC boots IMO.

Maybe we can get a clear answer from the Council now that they have an account, but I don't think it has anything to do with the stiffness of the boots that make it XC. I think it's construction. AFAIK you could have the stiffest double boot ever made with carbon fiber inserts and it would still be XCD. As soon as you go to a plastic shell with a bellows, it's a tele boot.

I'm really confused on the Merrell 'XCD' boots that had a leather bottom and full cuffed, buckled top. Seems to me those were XCD but Johnny says no. Maybe he misinterpreted something from the council? Maybe I don't understand?

I recall something about ankle flex, and maybe the Knights decided those boots were to rigid. I'm pretty sure boots like the Svartisen would be considered XCD. They provide some support but nothing like an Alpine boot, it's closer to a skate boot cuff. In fact there are a whole slew of 'XCD' leather boots on the market with cuffs from simple, soft flap types to more rigid exo-skeletons with ratchet buckles.

[Woodserson]

Man, this took an unexpected turn to the serious!

There were a few mentions that the industry and skiers have focused on either skating, or downhill, and classic has been left behind, with the assumption that it is because of the deficiencies in the equipment and what it can do. I agree that this is the case, the focus IS on skating, or heavier downhill gear, but I posit that the reasons behind it are not from functionality but by culture and the economic market that culture creates.

Let's face it... especially in the US, people are not interested in pursuits that don't produce immediate results or don't procure certain labeled images in the mind's eye. Skiing 5 miles down a closed forest road to climb a 300' vert hill, then to ski down it, and then ski the 5 miles back out, is not going to sell merchandise. It's hard, it's slow, it's boring, it's takes presence of mind, and no one gets it. However, there are a few people out there, me included, who want to do just this. What we need is light touring gear with adequate flat-land travel capabilities, and then just enough power in the boot and shape to the ski to make for a pleasurable descent. It's more a meditative process, and hippies like me just don't have enough marketing power to create viable niches in industry, so we're cobbling together solutions from old gear or shopping in Europe.

I remember hanging with some alpine skiers who started getting into skate skiing for fitness and, to my eye, for the label of being a skate skier. Skate skiing has specialized gear, and tight bright clothes, and sells an image of cutting-edge fitness-- these skier looked with disdain on classic XC... absolute disdain. The stores have pushed this as well, often at my local track I see almost geriatric people attempting to skate and having a miserable time of it when they would have gotten great exercise on classic gear and been able to ski around the lakes. Why were they sold an image of a skate skier when it wasn't appropriate? It's like bicycles and the push to put recreational/commuter bikers on race-inspired equipment with their asses 18" above their hands, clip-in shoes, and all the rest. There are a small subset of people who want functional, comfortable bikes a la Danish/Dutch traditions, but they are a small marketing force in the US because it's not Joe Cool.

Finally, we all have multiple pairs of skis. I have an AT set-up that I love for alpine environments, and a quiver of XC skis for lowland touring right up to moderate descents on mountains. I choose what is best or what I am feeling for the day or the trip... and every set up has compromises and strengths. It all melds together and fudges and smears. There are no clear boundaries, and I am OK with this.

No one, absolutely no one, is saying that one specific set-up is the end-all-be-all. I'm not sure where the fury is coming from, we just want to go sliding on snow and have fun! We are free to use whatever we want.

[bgregoire]

I'm not sure where the fury is coming from, we just want to go sliding on snow and have fun! We are free to use whatever we want.

The fury? Perhaps its just that. Most of us cannot go out and ski right now given the current climatic conditions. We're like little kids whose toys have been taken away. Waaaaaaaaannnnn!

[MikeK]

Man Woods... don't take what I say that way... no fury from me.

I'm all for the Knights for one simple reason. Preservation of something that everyone else seems to want to stamp out because, like Woods says:

1) it's boring to them
2) it's hard to do
3) it's not going to be found in an issue of Red Bulletin
4) the technology is generally low and slow, just like the turns are

If the Knights don't speak up, IT WILL be all plastic boots and rockered Alpine skis with fishscales. I GUARANTEE that!

And I'm totally cool with people skiing that way. Do whatever you want. I'm going to stick up for something I enjoy though.

I don't get mad when I have to sidestep a hill... I just take my time and do it. I don't swear when I botch a turn. I just shrug it off... oh well... better luck next time. Every time I make good turns I'm so tempted to take pictures of the tracks, but I resist... I feel like an arrogant douchebag doing something like that. And 9 times out of 10 I feel like a complete amateur 10 minutes later when I encounter something different and do it wrong.

You can approach skiing as an emotional thing and use it to stoke your ego, or you approach it from zen state (and I know I'm getting hippy dippy here) and try to FEEL your skis. Let them tell you where they want to go. Sometimes maybe they want you to fall... listen. You might learn something. My main focus is doing this and not getting hurt. But I never get mad at them. I tell my wife this when she gets frustrated. Keep your balance and ride them... don't fear them, don't fight them... I know it sounds idiotic, but it works.

When I get frustrated I realize that I am getting tired. I stop and rest. I look at the trees. Realize there is no sense in being frustrated and there's no place I'd rather be. Maybe I could have picked a better ski for the day? Who knows. I reflect on that when I sit at my desk. When I'm skiing, I don't care. I don't analyze. Shut that shit right off. Teleman is 100% right about that, except he can't turn it on when he's not skiing

As far as finding your zen gear... it might be different. Maybe it isn't XCD. But who cares? Why make XCD into something it's not so you can feel like the equipment you use is. Like Woods says, why toss out those old bikes because they don't fit your idea of biking? They might work for someone.

[MikeK]

And I thought Johnny was going to post this, but I'll blow the cover...

That whole Cross Country. Downhill. theme on this site is because, well, we get a lot of that interest here, but more importantly it popped up when we decided to create a wiki page to go with the forum.

We've all been doggin' on it. Johnny and I started working on it in December, but we lost track. We asked for some help from some knowledgeable regular members to help get it to where it was ready to be published, but everyone gets busy and it's kind of a boring task. Eventually we were going to take references from the forum of good info and add it to the wiki so we could keep a concise knowledge base for XCD (but it goes beyond XCD. It's everything from XC to Telemark but the main focus is XCD stuff).

When we heard about Pinnahs site going down, we wanted to save it. Dave didn't respond to me, and we decided it was a bit out of date anyway. We'd love to keep the archive data of old skis, but there is a lot to keep up with now. It's meant to be an objective guide for beginners just getting into free heel skiing to advanced skiers looking to change directions or update their stuff.

A lot of conversations contain this info, but it gets hard to sift through, so the wiki is supposed to capture the data and the forum is for discussion about it or personal experiences. This way hopefully users won't have to read 20 page threads to find out about classes of skis, what boots types there are, XCD techniques, etc... Basically a lot of the stuff Dave Mann did but in an updated form. We are also not copying Dave's format. It's a good format, but it's not ours. It'll be just as easy to follow and cross-reference in most cases, but will be broken up more on the basis of intelligence gained through this forum, not by merely copying someone else's work.

[The XCD Knights]

Good day,

Hans and Houschäng, both honourable XCD Knights of the Council in Austria, have informed me that we are to remain in contact with the members of this forum to help guide them and understand the ways of our society.

The XCD Knights, also known by other names worldwide, have been in contact with the owner of this forum and have decided that this forum is a place of acceptance and learning. We would not normally contact or speak to individuals in this manner; it has been our tradition to spread our knowledge and wisdom by word of mouth. We have known and considered the owner of this forum a credible individual with regards to our principles and trust that he will not disgrace our presence or betray our trust. We also know of the dark past of this place and have mourned the loss of many great contributors to our cause during those times.

First, we want to tell you we are not impressed by arguments over what we are and what we stand for. This is not our way. Our way is one of enlightenment and tolerance. We do not dislike other forms of skiing. I, myself, in fact, am a former FIS Telemark World Cup racer. I have a great love and respect for Telemark skiing, but my mission as a Knight is to protect the sanctity of cross-country in XCD skiing. It is our creed. It is our passion. It is our life-blood.

The fact of this matter comes from the very roots of Telemark skiing. We seek to preserve those roots and see the techniques used to ski cross-country equipment downhill world-wide.

Let me express again my gratitude for your help in spreading XCD skiing and teaching those the ways of the equipment and techniques. In time, we will divulge more information, but these things go slowly. This is our way.

Kindest Regards,
Gunnar
The Knights XCD of Norway